motzartmerv

Flyer...yes, the orbit idea did cross my mind...and if there wasn't fast wide traffic i probably would have done it..but i got the heebie jeebies about turning and heading straight back at the fast wide trsaffic, even though it would have only been temporarily...thanx for the tip..

Mazda..yea, ive heard and seen some funny things in the cct there when doing some ppl training..ive been into the tower and watched them for an hour or so, and they are funny guys..By the way, anyone who wants to go into the tower at camden the guys there are all to willing to let ya watch and give ya a run down on what goes on in there...its an exellent way to get a real idea of whats happening..Theres more going on in there then ya'd think, and i must say they are incredibly vigilant operators...

;);)

Hi mike..thanx, yes that would have been a better idea by far...but at the time i was approaching the airfield i heard a lot of traffic, going at different speeds, particularly the twin which was overtaking 2 aircraft on early downwind..and 1 on crosswind i think..so including me that would have made 5 acft on downwind at once..1 of the other piliots was on the radio asking where the twin was and she replied she was doing quite wide ccts to allow for the extra speed and overtaking...it was a last minute descision not to descend down into the caos rather to overfly it all, have a look at what was going on and then find a hole...the hole i chose was to let the twin go past me on upwind to the right of me and then cross and join downwind..becasue she had overtaken 2 accft on downwind..so i knew that none of those accft would conflict with me joining....basically crosswind and early downwind were stacked up when i was at the point of descision..so i opted to stay out of it and observ from above where evryone was fitting in...in hindsight, it wasn't a great descision but its one ive chosen a number of time previously..I don't know, theres something about being at cct height and joining from the outside with all the different sized ccts being conducted scares me abit..i would much prefer to approach traffic from there left and on the same side as the strip becasue thats where visibility for them is best and where there eyes usually are..

Conversely, if i join from outside, i may be on the left of 1 acft and on the right of another, and going faster then some and slower then some...Its just something im more comfortable with ...the other strips have never caused me a problem in this situation becasue they are rarely if ever at cct hieght midfeild..

From the ersa you can see that the runway 10/28 doesnt run contra ccts..they go the same way as 06/24...its quite crazzy at times.

i hope ive been clear, its hard to relate in words what was going through my mind at the time...

Yep, its a great forum Ian..The guys on here are quite knowledgeable and all to willing to offer advice and tutalidge..;);)

Mal..yes ..that sounds like good advice to me, although that doen't leave a bloke much time to spot the traffic turning downwind as your nose is down and accft would be approaching from the right...but if evryones being polite and useing the radio propperly there shouldn't be nuch of a problem...i think from now on i will descend after calling inbound and enter on a 45 from the outside of the cct..

The problem you stated about the threshold's of 24 and 28 is a bit more of a worry..especially when one aircraft doesn't give a lining up or rolling call...but thats another story..lets just say i sorted that out after landing personlly..hehe..

Yes, its an interesting place alright..theres a parralel grass glider strip, actually 2 glider strips 10/28 and 06/24 and a light aircraft grass strip 10/28 and the main runway 06/24..it gets very interesting when all 3 are active as some schools at camden love useing the grass..they will even put up with a crosswind to use it...i am glad for the experiance gained by learning in this busy environment..when i first started flying it was from a quiet central qld strip and canonly remeber a couple of occsions when there was another accft anywhere near the place..i couldn't imagine learning there and then flying into a place like camden...scary scary...anyway...thanx again for ur input, and thanx to all who have added there words of wisdom to this thread..ur input is priceless..

;););)

Togscentral..i have just realised what your last post said...and yes, i let down not on the live side of the contra cct but more overhead the contra strip...its as good as can be done at camden..thats what i was taught anyway...but like i said b4..i will be taking the issue up with my chieff ...

Togscentral..thanx for elaberating more...however i think you missread my original post...i overflew ay 1800 indicated (1500 agl) untill i was on the deadside and commenced my descent and turn..i was at curcuit height when i was about to cross the strip, but...i was still in a slight turn not having yet squared up to the strip...its at that time close to the strip and still slightly banked that i saw the shaddow..I would never let down on the live side..to get down to cct height without overflying the other strips at camden you really need to get the power off and nose right over to loosed the height all while turning back towards the strip...its a bit of a thing..passengers i have taken up at yscn have said they really didnt like the steepness of the manouver..

If i have learned 1 thing from this misshap, its to get a visual on that accft...if no visual is made, then bug out...turn upwind..mabye radio and ask for a position...if i had continued to cross the strip im pretty sure i wouldn't be here today..

Togcentral..thankyou for your input, the seneca pilot did only climb to cct height..she leveled out shortly after passing me..i was also at cct height crossing midfield..i turned to close to the active runway so that i was still turning when very close to the strip, thats why i couldnt see her, my left wing being down..This is why its a confusing situation..becasue we were both doing the propper thing..albeit i turned to close to the strip..

Thankyou for the detailed explination regarding contra ccts..i will be showing this thread to my chieff on monday..something needs to change in the procedures taught at least by the school i fly with..

Thnx browng and Nev..i will deffinatly try that slip manouver next time...sounds like good advice to me...As to the conra cct's..I checked and you are deffinatly right...so i conclude that the situation erose from a normal procedure being conducted but shouldn't have been at the time with the other runways in use, albeit the confliction was not with acft on the conta strip...so the same thing would have happend regardless of contra strip operations..Im just lucky i didnt conflict with the gliders aswell...but in my defence i was taught that procedure by a number of instructors at YSCN and was told to keep it tight to 06/24 and not overfly the glider strip, which in essence is what caused the problem because i was so close to 06/24 and in a descending turn and didnt avail myself enough time to check the traffic on upwind..I will be discussing this with my chieff on monday at length..obviously the procedures taught need to be modified..All that being said..i should have checked the ersa myself..i have been flying out of there for months now and have certainly looked at the publication for camden without realising the contra cct point...tsk tsk to me..Very dissapointed with myself..

I f i had been following the rules this incident wouldn't have occured..No one to blame but me..From now on i will join downwind ona 45 deg..

Nev..thanx..yes, i believe the twin went around very early, thats what allerted me to the potential risk, but seeing its shaddow racing towards me was the final peice of the puzz;e that forced me to do the turn..thank god..i can fully understand that the other pilot was very busy and it was my job to remain clear of it..so if a collision occured it would have been my fault..deffinatly..

The main reason i posted other then to get advice was to highlight a potential problem in busy cct's even though all pilots where following procedure...the big "learny" for me is to eyeball that plane on upwind, and if i can't see it, i will turn upwind and not cross untill i have a fix on it...this situation will never threaten me again because of what i have learned...i hope ppl reading this will run through the event in there mind so as to never make my mistake..

cheers guys..thankyou all..

HPD..thanx for the link, i will check that out..Whats so strange about calling ur statements re the ADSB political?? it is a "policy' introduced by the ASA and CASA is it not?? My post was about an 'incident'..a post to fellow pilots, none of whom other then yourslef have mentioned ADSB..They have all offered advice and potential courses of action, none of which was to get an anticollision device fitted..Would you prefer me and others not to post incidences like this just in case it raises 'political' questions (only by you by the way)...should we all just keep these incidences to ourselve's in case it gives fuel to the fire..well sorry pal, not this little black duck..

and just FYI, i think a device like the ADSB would cause more problems then it it would save..nothing beats 2 eyes mate and to have a device like that would instill a false sence of security in pilots especially those new students who learn in acft fitted with these things, it would remove the responsability to 'look out' from there phsychie..would you agree??or are your objections purely a finacial argument??

Thanx flyer and cheers for the pm..i will do that..I was taught to decend on the dead side and cross the strip at cct height and never to let down on the active side?? I hope this is right becasue it forms the fundemental coarse of action when overflying and joining a cct?? surely descending on the live side would cause many more problems...i think i kept the descending turn too tight to ther strip so that i was still practiacally turning when i was nearly over the strip thereby eliminating my view of acft on takeoff leg..

cheers again

Wayne..thanx for the kind words re the article, im glad you decided to fly again, that was pretty much the goal becasue i know a few guys that love flying but have been scared out of the sky by other incidences..Keep it up mate, and when u do make mistakes don't be scared to ask us this forum or anyone for that matter what u may have done better..its a crucial part of gaining experiance..Good luck and keep it up..

Thankyou all so much for your concerns..I will be seeing my instructor on monday and discussing the incident at length..On reflection i think that overflying such a busy cct was probably not the best thing to do..the rational behind doing that was that all the aircraft in the cct where dojng quite different speeds and cct sizes and i wanted to get a 'fix' on the ones turning downwind b4 i commited to entering at cct height..obviously this wasn't the best descision..Its the old murpheys law..the seneca went aroiund right at the worst possible time for me, surely any o f the other aircraft going around at that time wouldn't have casued such a problem..But it was also murpheys law that saved me to as i heard the 'chick' pilot on downwind and asscociated that voice with the seneca which a few moments later helped me realise it was the fast twin which was climbing towards me..

I do appreciate you all taking the time to offer advice and i hope this story sticks in some students minds when approaching a busy airfield..

As for keeping it friendly....I thought i was quite friendly..considering the rate at which my blood was boiling over certain comments..

Thanx darren..and thanx for the earlier response too..im sorry if i seemed a bit miffed...i just was blown away by being accused of having some agenda..As for being scared out of flying, that happend once already 4 years ago, i wont let it happen again...My instructor at the time, a guy who had multi thousnads of hrs, crashed and died with his son in the plane who also died..read my article "dreams" in november issue of the RAA mag..(not the one "dreams do come true") explains how hard it was for me to go flying again..

anyway thankyou again...

What i hoped to achieve HPD was was for someone to tell me what i did wrong... I was looking out for it...i was desperate to get a visual on it..the seneca did not see me, unless climbing out on the same course is your idea of avoiding someone...I would like to know what you hope to achieve by casting doubt on my reason's for posting a ligitimate question..

We in the RAA owe alot to ppl such as yourself that pioneerd our sport b4 it was 'accepted' by the powers that be, and i can understand your bitterness towards the beurictats that are trying to impose this costly burden on us...but mate, even though i have a licence i am still very much a student and ill get advice from whoever will offer it ..especially when it comes to situations like this..the seneca was obviously well within its rights to go around as i was well within my rights to overfly the strip..how duzz the give way rule work in this situation??

ps..How can we stop these ADSB's?? What is the rationale behind them if as you say these incidents are so rare??

HPD..Mate, seems uve got an axe to grind..Im not gunna play polatics with you or anyone else..My post was about a serious near incident i had today with my daughter in the plane..i posted hoping to get some feedback as to what may have went wrong as i don't have "20" years experiance..i only got my licence a few months ago so seems asking ppl such as yourself who do have lots of airtime what i may have done to cause the near miss..but more importantly, what i may have done to avoid it..i htought thats what these forums were for...and for you to say that i have some sort of political agenda is just downright insulting..i dont give a toss about adsb or any other future so called improvements mate..i hire aircaft to fly...i can't afford to own one anyway..with or without anticollision devices...

Why is it so difficult for you to believe that an incident like this can occur in a cct with 7 aircraft in it??...I was shaking like a leaf when we landed and you can quote percentages at me all you like..you didnt hear that noise wizz past ur window thisafternoon and see my daughters face when she realised how close we came..I don't know where you have done this '20' years of flying, but i bet it wasnt in a gaap aerodriome full of aircraft, otherwise mabye you'd be a bit more sympathetic and offer some help rather then ranting on about political BS..

HPD..im intrigued mate...what made u ask??

ummm..no...whys that??

Hi guys..i want some feedback on an incident i had today while flying at camden...I don't know who was in the wrong (it was probably me ..it ususally is)..

I was returning to the airfield via the mayfield inbound lane at 1800 (500 above curcuit height)..There was plenty of traffic in the cct..2 cessna 172's a citabria another jabiru a piper seneca and a helicopter..There was also gliders operating on the eastern side and a couple were landing on the grass strip..

I overflew the strip at 1800 becasue i didnt want to track all the way to the north and enter the curcuit early dwonwind with all that traffic..Camden officially doesnt have a deadside becasue of the glider and grass strips but i was taught to decend on the deadside and keep it tight to the main runway 06/24...i gave my call over head the field and started my decent and turn..while i was in my turn i gave another call to let them know where i was..just then the piper called "going around"I had my back to it so i couldn't see it , but continued my turn and started to track crosswind towards the strip at cct height..while i was doing that the situation slowly dawned on me that that seneca may be very high for its position and i scanned for it but couldnt see it..all i saw was a shadow tracking next to the strip in my dirrection..i quickly realised that we were on an intercept course with noonly our height seperating us..i made a steep turn to the right to track upwind and was almost directly overhead the field..just then the seneca roared past me in a very nose high attitude and only about 40 meters away..so close i could hear its engines...i was midfield and at cct height...how could it be so high so quickly..it must have gone around very early...to tell you the truth, the only reason i knew it was the seneca that had called going around was becasue i recognised the female pilots voice as being in the seneca from her turning base call...

I was incredibly shaken by this 'near miss'....i thought i done evryhting right...right place at the right time...i spose i could have made more of an effort to 'See' the seneca earlier...but i really didnt expect it to be that high so soon...

can anyone tell me what i did wrong..and please don't hold back..i told my cfi (briefly) when i landed but he was busy in the simulator with a student...he just raised his eyes and whistled....grrrlll...i shudder to think what may have happend if it were cloudy and no shadows..

Graham..looks like 3 things to me mate...lol...anyway, im well versed on flight planning..its a bit hard to factor wind and temp when im not departing for another 5 days...i just didnt have the poh handy so i wasn't sure about the load limits behind the seats..But the boys cleared that up for me ...cheers

Thanx guys..this forum rocks...

cheers

Hi, anyone know the approach procedures for moree? The ersa says to refer to aip, but i don't have one handy..I'll be approaching from the south and departing to the north...

cheers

Yea..have relo's in Bilo...But am taking my daughter up to see her mum for xmass..Really just an exuse to get my hours up, im planning to get an instructor rating and need a few more..

So 20 kg of baggage seems to ring a bell...ill stick to that i think...cheers

This probably isn't the right place for this thread, but its a video of a c182 (i think) being overloaded and then trying to take off...U can clearly see them stuffing huge gass bottles in the back..An absolute discgrace of piloting..and has tragic results..i am posting it so us pilots can see what happens when we overload and stuff up the c of g...

Warning...not for the squeemish