griffo

Bernoulli?? I dunno! I just push this thingie here.........the noise gets BIGGER......wind gets faster,,,,and when it sounds really 'cool', I pull back on the stick-thing and the ground gets smaller...... I dunno why!!..... But I fink its sumphin to do wif the NOISE!!

G'day Ian, Yep! You are correct! The RATE of climb will differ in a turn from that of S&L.....due to all of those other factors...Angle of bank, increased angle of attack to maintain the same vert. component of lift, increased power to overcome the increased drag due to.....etc etc and to provide the climbing power - power available above the best lift/drag ratio etc....and so it goes...... beyond what we were discussing here. However, the point I was trying to make is, that, once established in a climbing turn, then the W/V has NIL effect on your RATE of climb. (I didn't mention S&L...only about putting the acft into the climbing turn) The original query was that the acft would climb at differing rates in a headwind v tailwind......(hence my suggestion about the climbing turn where one is changing 'head/cross/ tail' wind constantly....sort of....) NYET! Once we are airborne, then we are simply flying in a body of air, which in itself may or may not be moving - CALM v BREEZE v cyclone - this movement is measured by us OVER the ground, relative to the ground, as a Northerly, or whatever - strong, medium, gentle or whatever - but does our aeroplane care?? NYET! It is simply behaving as to the aerodynamic principles of flight...it may be 'bumpy' - turbulence due to W/V over terrain (mechanical turb) or due to convection currents on a hot day - but the airflow relative to the aeroplane, and hence its IAS, RATE of climb (NOT 'APPARENT' ANGLE) will be the same as always...... e.g. If my aeroplane, at a certain weight/load, with a certain power setting at an attitude which gives me a certain angle of attack - we see this as IAS - everything else being 'constant', will give me a RATE of climb of say, 500ft a minute, then it will do regardless of the W/V, and regardless of the acft heading. (into wind v downwind). Don't even mention summer v winter yet....we are considering a specific day and point in time. Temps DO make a difference, and for a whole variety of reasons. Thanks for your patience;)

Negative Sir! Your RATE of climb will be exactly the SAME when climbing in a turn IF you keep your attitude, (IAS), Power setting (Full throttle) & angle of bank constant - usually at no more than 15deg bank whilst climbing - otherwise the extra drag at higher angles will 'negate' the power available which enables you to climb... (Of course, as you climb up to the higher levels your power will usually decrease with alt.) Try this next time....climb to a safe alt. then set the aircraft up in a climbing turn @ a 15deg A. of bank, - L or R - doesn't matter, trim for the climb, and without touching your power setting from full power - or whatever your particular aircraft engine power setting - observe your VSI, and I'll bet you, if you hold everything else constant, whilst climbing into/out of/ across wind / upwind / downwind / any bloody wind, your RATE of climb will NOT alter. If you don't have a VSI, use your stopwatch. After a while you will have forgotten from which particular direction relative to your flight path, the W/V is from! You are simply moving UP in a body of air - which is itself moving over the ground in a particular direction at a particular speed = wind velocity = W/V, which does NOT affect the climbing RATE of your aeroplane. It will certainly affect your ANGLE of climb - i.e. your flight path relative to the ground. Climbing into a wind of say 20kts @ climbing speed of 60kts IAS = say 500ft/min over the ground at 40kts G/S. Plot this and see the angle produced. Now do the same for downwind. 60kts IAS + the 20 = 80 kts G/S. In the same 1 minute, the aircraft has still climbed 500ft, but now at a G/S of 80kts = further dist travelled = much 'shallower' ANGLE of climb. But at THE SAME RATE! To an observer on the ground, I have been known to make an aircraft 'Stand Still' - and even fly backwards - the fact that I was still doing 40kts into a 40 / 45 kt 'headwind' was lost on the audience of the time... And I am sure that you can do this 'trick' as well...just keep that ball in the middle and watch your attitude i.e. IAS I hope this helps, Regards, Griffo;) Apart from accepting this, I would strongly advise that a GOOD book on BAK would be appropriate reading. I can thoroughly recommend "THE MECHANICS OF FLIGHT" by Mr A. C. Kermode. OR, any other "Principles Of Flight" epistle. The response of others on this forum have been very thorough -IMHO - and I can only suggest these be read and digested further. However, if you have any further queries, don't hesitate to ask. I'm sure we (Collectively) can make progress with this.

"That" Question of IAS vs G/S.... Hi all, A Caution if I may be so presumptious... Just remember the 'apparent slip' and the 'apparent skid' when doing all this stuff 'close' to the ground..... You just keep the aircraft in balance...that little old ball in the hey-diddle- diddle...every time, and you will be ok. The illusion is a joy to behold, but that is all it is, providing that, THAT little ball is in the middle...an illusion. Enjoy your flying - and don't worry too much about things that aren't in 'The Mechanics Of Flight' by A.C. Kermode if ya really wanna get serious. This book on the "Principles Of Flight', or its derivatives, are really REQUIRED reading if you wanna win all of those bar-room arguments / debates. And, 'VK', I think you might find that your RATE of climb is no different when climbing in still (Calm), headwind, or tailwind. What will be readily apparent is your differing ANGLE of climb in the given conditions - that is, the ANGLE of climb is RELATIVE to the ground, whilst the RATE...finish this sentence... Cheers.:thumb_up:

G'day guys, This has been pretty well covered by now. However, as a CPL on those 'other' aircraft and an ex ATS person, I would say that an incident report should be submitted. If you have done that - good for you. The capt should have put one in as well because of his TCAS alert. It is required, and he has another person in the cockpit, so it may well be in his best interest to do so, despite his obvious 'embarassment'... The other possible 'recording' you could chase is the aircraft refueller's if there is one - he may have a recording facility for the CTAF 118.1 for the Taree City Council for landing fee charges. I see from ERSA that charges are collected by AVDATA - however it doesn't hurt to enquire. A valuable lesson nevertheless....... p.s. I had a 'similar' incident many years ago, I was on the base leg for the runway at a country airport in Central QLD, turning Final, and it was such a nice day that I was observing my aircraft shadow during the turn onto Final - when all of a sudden a much larger shadow began to 'merge' with mine. I recognised it immediately as a 'F-27 type' shadow, and immediately called that I was on final for RWY XX, whilst shoving the nose down and turning away from the rwy, - he saw me then - and he went around - and, yes he abused me for not calling on the VHF, and when I told him I had ...he checked his selected VHF freq - and apologised...... It can happen to us all at some time I guess - but then that's why there are 2 of them! Regards, Griffo:thumb_up:

Hi 'Storchy'... I'm with you.....way to go!! Cheers and thanks:wave: Griffo

Thankyou Sir... Thanks 'Big Pete' for the response....and the welcome!!:thumb_up: I haven't been over your way for ages - I did ferry a couple of C152's over to the West many years ago and overflew ECH at a rather 'low' level due headwinds. (Just 'skirted' the town area so as not to annoy anybody...) The river with the early morning mists looked nice. Lotsa w i d e o p e n s p a c e s out there..... Cheers

G'day guys and gals, I sort of 'stumbled' on this forum, and although I am yet to take my first "Rec" aircraft flight, I do have lots of experience over many years in those 'other' powered aircraft. I am retired now, having worked in aviation in some form or another all of my working life, still hold a current licence and like to 'dabble'.... I live in Perth, and sometimes get up to Northam where there is an active Recreational group, which I thought might keep me off the streets for a while. So, I look forward to reading your various posts, sharing some ideas, and generally keeping active in the industry, and am looking forward to my first flight in what is to me, a new type of aircraft. (I just may be able to afford to do this more than the VH- type of flying - at least the fuel costs should be more affordable....yes?) Happy Landings...