walrus

The whole proposal is a waste of time.

But wait! There's more costs! If AsA mandates transponders AND ADSB then add another $4000++ to the costs.

AsA requires that any transponder outputting ADSB signals MUST have a TSO'd GNSS position source (SIL=2).  The cheapest of those is over $2000. You are legally not allowed to use anything with SIL = 1 on a transponder, I currently output SIL = 0 which means ASA ignores it.

I can't see AsA making a Sky echo mandatory either.

It's not going to be obsolete for another twenty to thirty years because it is built in to all commercial jetliners for at least forty years. You are talking of tens of  thousands of jetliners.

For them to add another unit will require fully certified installations to be designed for each, depending on original configurations including interfacing with existing equipment. As Dick Smith found out, you are talking billions and billions of dollars. Furthermore the system is not stand alone like TCAS but relies on the GPS system.

Just discovered that I configured my transponder to output ADSB with SIL = 0. My aircraft shows up on Sky Echo units and also FR24.

What I think people need to consider here are the questions of standards and reliability. I went into these in some detail a while ago in an effort to  convince myself that a certain GPS was capable of meeting the necessary TSO's. I failed.

The simple fact is that as long as Airservices or CASA's backside points to the ground, they are NOT going to allow you to tool around anywhere near an RPT jet aircraft from B737 on up, without a TSO'd transponder and GNSS position source (NOT TSO C199) because they have to GUARANTEE separation.

To put that another way, they are not going to risk you becoming engine fodder for an A380 because your Sky Echo battery went flat, or it's two dollar multi layer PCB cracked. Folks, it's consumer electronics, not something to risk 300+ lives on. That is why I call it a toy. One that may give you a false sense of security. For example, how do you positively KNOW there is no traffic? Are you sure its position is correct?  What if the Antenna has failed?

Yes transponders are old technology, so is the internal combustion engine. Yes ADS-B might be better but the cost of doing a certified installation in RPT aircraft is stratospheric. The aviation industry is super conservative for good reason.

.....and further reading of CAO 20..18 indicates No use of ADSB - Out from a mode S transponder unless it is connected to a $2000++ certified GNSS unit.

Then of course space based ADSB is coming which requires at least extra aerials. Then supposedly there is an Australian SBAS system which may require a different GPS.

And then we find that Sky Echo is just a toy as far as CASA and Airservices are concerned, and anyway airliners don't do ADSB, they do TCAS.

The entire ADSB thing is just a useless circus.

transponders roughly $3500 each for ?2000 RAA aircraft? Plus installation. $6 million?

An EC device will get you into class E Airspace and nowhere else.

What pisses me off is that GPS equipment that is legal in the USA - accepted by the FAA for adsb, isn't legal here because, well, we are special.........

You can stick ADSB and the skyecho up your proverbial. I spent over $15000 on avionics, I have a transponder and I STILL can't get a compliant ADSB installation without shelling out for a high accuracy GPS ($3000+). CASA killed the low cost option stone dead. Read CAO 20.18. Not only that, we STILL cant get access to class D or C airspace anyway.

I am NOT putting a box on the windscreen and fiddling with an iPad in flight for anyone. It is simply too dangerous in turbulence to have all this extra stuff floating around, nor do I want to be head down trying to find traffic on an iPad.

Sometimes I feel that CASA and AsA are doing their level best to kill Australian Aviation, in all its forms, stone dead. The Class E proposal is a step in that direction.

Then in the absence of further information, the answer is: “it depends”. Why would you use stainless steel instead of alloy or fibreglass? While you need to constrain the edges of a baffle for structural reasons, why try and connect it to a (vibrating) engine? It won’t stay connected for long. What’s wrong with silicon baffle seal  material like everyone else uses? Are you solving a problem that doesn’t exist?

Not only transponders $3000, but certified gps to drive ADSB with sil = 3, another $3000.

Their selling point - the '45psi fuel rail pressure in the event of an accident" is problematic. Rotax requires their EFI engines to have a bleed orifice across the rail that dumps pressure immediately the pumps are turned off.

Carburettors plus injection? he worst of all possible worlds!

1. RPT aircraft have TCAS, they don’t use ADSB -IN 

2 ADSB is for airservices and GA..

3. The cost of a certified GPS input for ADSB is at least $3000 and it’s an extra box that does eff all. My Dynon skyview has an $850 gps available that satisfies the FAA but not CASA! As for EC devices, I have a horror of little boxes, iPads and wires all over the cockpit. If the weather gets bumpy you can count on any such junk to end up in a tangled mess under your rudder pedals.

Is it even possible to fly coastal around Australia? I would have thought controlled airspace would preclude it. For example, Townsville, Cairns, Darwin and Perth look like absolute road blocks.

she wasnt a victim at all. She didnt get a scratch. She was "traumatised".

There is a mathematical basis to this discussion which I think it is important to understand (but not the maths) these are termed "transfer functions" that govern how the control input gets converted to an output and the feedback provided.

Transfer functions explain the difference between "Nice", "easy", "hard" etc. The best way to explain it is by reference to Mercedes Benz. A cars "feel" is a transfer function of the tyres, suspension geometry spring rates damping etc, right down to the seat geometry and padding. Mercedes years ago put billions into understanding the transfer functions for a very important reason - they wanted to ensure that the average driver could use 70% - 80% of the cars actual capability in terms of braking, steering, collision avoidance etc. without feeling uncomfortable or in danger. This is a transfer function of how the car "feels" to the driver ie feedback through the steering, seat vibration etc.

Mercedes understood that the vehicles ultimate performance was unimportant - what mattered was what fraction of it was actually available to mum and dad without scaring them to death. Other carmakers exclaimed that their cars could perform better than MB ...in the hands of a Lewis Hamilton but none of it was available to the average driver because they will feel unstable and at risk long before the car is anywhere near its limits.

This is the source of all those "My torana is faster than your benz" stories.

I suggest Piper and Cessna by luck and hard work got most things right and the average pilot can make them perform to specification. Not so other aircraft.

I learned about this after taking a Mercedes off the road in a 70 mph perfectly controlled  4 wheel drift with ten passengers on board. I had been licenced for two weeks. We were on our wy to a party. Very little damage to car and none to us. If it had been a Holden or Ford of that era we would have hit a tree or gone into the yarra inverted all dead. I decided to learn about driving after that.

KGW, have you logged in to the website and checked your email address recently?

Let’s all do our best to support our new CEO. From my brief reading of his resume, he has very considerable aviation experience. He deserves a fair go in implementing the RAA business strategy.

 BFR $220??? My last GA one was $840 - 2 hrs!

I see lots of young tradies with a Dodge Ram or similar towing a $150,000 wakeboard boat. By those standards an aircraft isn't that expensive. I have one acquaintance, in the concrete business, who just spent about $350,000 on his Jetranger overhaul. Yesterday someone paid $4.3 million for a relatively modest house in my old suburb. Aircraft aren't that expensive consideriing......

Well that's progress for you. When I started sailing, sails were cotton, the ropes hemp. You were always cold and damp because nothing was waterproof including the deck. It was still expensive although you could swap a few bottles for a fresh cray. Maximum speed maybe 6 knots.

These days warm dry breathable goretex, carbon fibre, spectra, titanium , autopilots, powered winches and GPS. 20 knots surfing on occasion. I know which I prefer but we still have some beautifully restored antiques for perfect weather use only.

I built a quicksilver hang glider from plans circa 1974 and almost killed myself before I sold it. I like a Tiger Moth on a sunny day.

However now I will take all the technology I can get.

What is happening is that the Seventy (?) year old model of what we used to regard as GA is facing disruptive technology; new engines, GPS, EFIS, carbon and kevlar composite, etc. The gap betweenn sports plane and GA performance is slowly narrowing. Yes, I know they are not certified, but as time progresses that will matter less and less until one day a sports aircraft becomes the better choice.

As for utility, it depends. Some destinations are eight hours by road and two hours by air. Sydney is about the same time by commercial and sports aircraft once you factor three to four hours of airport BS into it.

I had Conversations with two different engine and airframe agents recently. Both said, without any prompting from me, that sales were excellent - better than normal. One put it down to the pandemic - intending builders who now had time on their hands and the money to pursue their flying dream.

‘’Anyone asked RAA how busy they are? New pilots? New aircraft?

RFguy, Mogas has a higher energy content than Avgas (3-5%). If your engine is designed to use it, it will perform better with mogas than Avgas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas

DO NOT USE FUEL WITH ETHANOL. Ethanol dissolves water into solution. Under some circumstances it can reverse and dump that water into your engine. It also plays hell with your fuel system.

https://generalaviationnews.com/2016/10/24/ethanol-and-aircraft-just-say-no/

‘’As for fuel quality, do what others have advised and buy brand name fuel from busy outlets. Your concerns about contamination are not backed up by experience. Save your money.

I’ve had one deliberate contamination incident in fifty years and that was from a cut price no name retailer at peak hill, nsw thirty years ago.

The equation is volume of air in cylinder is proportional to actual air pressure minus manifold pressure. As you go higher you are opening the throttle wider but that is offset by the falling external pressure.

Be careful what you wish for.........

‘Every time you ask for a change in regulations, you are creating an irresistible opportunity for an aspiring bureaucrat to increase his authority, salary and number of subordinates- at YOUR expense.

‘’When someone asks for RAA aircraft to be incorporated on the VH register at no charge, the true bureaucrat is asking why, if RAA aircraft pay annual fees, why shouldn’t VH aircraft do likewise? That would increase CASA revenue and incidentally require more staff and computer systems, making our bureaucrats job bigger and more important.

‘’Same with engaging with CASA about medicals, access to controlled airspace, weight increases, etc. YOU see an opportunity to increase your freedoms. THEY see an opportunity to restrict them further. This is why I worried about the SAAA submission re medical self certification, SAAA want that to be extended to their members. The likely response of a true bureaucrat is to remove that privilege from RAA.

‘’You need a very clear and cohesive position when you argue for change or you will get the worst of both worlds.