Sam the Swiss

Presumably this 'approach sector' is a 'collection point'? If so, shouldn't aircraft incoming to the approach sector be making radio calls before they get there, indicating their height, intentions and arrival time?

Yes, it is a collection point, but quite large. The incoming aircrafts make their calls, but often they are not very precise ("…approaching sector east…“) and as the area is quite large it is difficult to figure out, where exactly the other plane is. Normal call is position (imprecise here), hight and intension, no arrival time.

 

 

Hi everybody

 

This is going to be a little lengthy.

 

On my last flight, I had a close encounter with another aircraft coming in for an approach of the same airfield. Shortly before I did my call that I am at the designated approach sector (east) I heard another aircraft with the call that he is approaching the same sector, followed by a call of a third plane entering downwind of the active runway. I could not see either plane, so overhead the airfield I added to my call my high and my intention (descending to join righthand downwind RWY XY) and that I don't see the other traffic.

 

As the pilot of the other aircraft told me later on ground I just underflow him at that moment with a distance of around 20 m, way too close for me. Additionally I entered the downwind in front of another aircraft, in a better distance but not really in a distance big enough. Both pilots helped me out, the first by doing a 360 overhead and the second by extending his downwind. So in the end no harm was done.

 

But I don't want to let that happen again. What should I have done different? Making a 360 in the approach sector without seeing the other aircraft seems wrong to me, and overhead the close encounter was already fact. Moreover I did not know where from the other aircraft was approaching sector east.

 

Can the more experienced pilots comment on that? I would appreciate you sharing your experience.

 

 

Thanks @Garfly, that was interesting. It will help me if I ever will have the chance to fly in the US.

@Downunder: All pilots on the same frequency can hear you, so you may talk to another pilot in approach. We use it when we are told to look out for traffic. When the other plane sees us, he/she tells so.

That is also what puzzled me when I saw the case: She gets landing clearance over and over again. If we get clearance it is only withdrawn very rarely, I wasn't in this situation myself up to now. Only one plane per runway is cleared at a time. If I follow an airliner I might already be in very short final until I get the clearance, as I only get it when the runway is vacated. Is this different in your places?

 

 

So far I get the following picture about the cruise speed (which is probably not the most important figure of a Savannah ):

 

ICP advertises 97 kts / 111 mph / 179 km/h cruise using 18.5 l/h

 

They use spats which yield about 6 kts / 7 mph / 11 km/h

 

As they use 18.5 l/h compared to your 15-15.5 l/h, their cruise is measured at a higher rpm, which is at about 20% more energy for propulsion.

 

20% more energy for propulsion gives maybe 7% more speed: Starting from your 83 kts / 96 mph / 154 km/h this would give 89 kts / 102 mph / 165 km/h.

 

Adding for the spats we are at 95 kts / 109 mph / 176 km/h, pretty close to the advertised numbers (1-2% off). So although their cruise is a rather high 75% cruise, their numbers are ok.

 

Any other real world experience with a Savannah?

 

Sam

 

 

Good question… I think it should be something you have a personal relationship with, like for a friend of mine snoopy as a WW I-pilot, so it is difficult to provide advice. But maybe that by now you already know what to put on .

 

 

The breaks seem to be o.k. just a little to full.On wednesday my plane had its final inspection and was declared airworthy. In a couple of days, when the paperwork is done, testflights can begin.[ATTACH]55015[/ATTACH][ATTACH]55016[/ATTACH][ATTACH]55017[/ATTACH][ATTACH]55018[/ATTACH]

Congratulations! You were fast and the bird looks beautiful!Sam

 

 

Hi Sam,the Savannah is a good plane to built. Flight data are aviable in some weeks, because I'm just about to start test flights.If you are interested in building, you might want to check www.savannah-blog.de

Hi TomI am following your posts on this site since you started your project, and I am impressed that you are already that far. Thanks for the link and I am looking forward to your data on the performance of your beauty.

 

BTW: You were flying a savannah recently for transition training. Do you remember any data from there? I know, different machine, and a lot of things to get used to…

 

Sam

 

 

Hi Sam,OK - I'll start off with data from my Savvy S (from memory).

Empty weight about 310 kg - I have long range tanks, dual brakes, centre stick, adjustable seats, transponder, Garmin Aera 500, manual flaps, electric trim....

 

I usually fly solo, and I weigh about 60kg. With full tanks, and about 7kg of stuff in the baggage my take-off weight is around 470-480 kg.

 

So my figures when solo are usually closer to the old 450kg ones in the POH rather than the 600kg ones.

 

The stall speed gets hard to measure when I fly straight and just slow up as the angle of the pitot is high and not really reading accurately, but with full flap I see it around 25 kts. When clean it is around 30kts, but same issue with pitot at high AoA. (Book figures for 600kg are 30kts and 35kts respectively).

 

I cruise at around 4800-5000 rpm (100hp ULS), and my speed is around 82-83 IAS. I flight plan on 90 kts TAS, with cruise altitude usually over 4000ft AMSL, and over 3 years I have found that to be largely accurate.

 

I get about 15 litres per hour with 98 octane MOGAS (POH figure is 18.5). This gives me an endurance of 8 hours + reserve, which is well past my bladder endurance...

 

I haven't really measured my take-off roll as it varies with wind, surface, etc - but it would usually be less than 200m, and my rate of climb solo is usually 800-1000fpm as the flap extension speed is 60kts so I have to keep the nose angle high enough to avoid exceeding this. I usually climb out at 55kts, and I am frequently at circuit height before turning crosswind.

 

Landing distance is also usually less than 200m or so - I do not try to land short most of the time as it puts stress on the u/c to do this, and as my home field has 1200m of runway I really don't have to! Much shorter landings are definitely possible. Just search Youtube for videos of Savannahs doing short landings - there are many!

 

BTW - see if you can get Revision 6 or later of the POH as that has figures for both 450kg and 600kg MTOW.

 

I hope this helps. I have certainly been happy with my Savannah since I bought it, and there are many Savannah owners/builders in Australia who I think feel the same way.

 

Let me know if there are any other figures you would like, and I will try to supply them from my experience.

 

Good luck with convincing your family!!

 

Regards,

 

Neil

Neil, from your avatar I also take, that you don't have wheel spats on your plane. What size of wheels do you carry?Sam

 

 

Hi, my savannah vg : weight 680Cruise at 5000 : 95 mphMax cruise : around 105 mph

 

No long range tank

 

Fuel burn 15.5 l/h

 

912 uls

 

Mtow 1232

Thank you g2omer for your data. From your avatar I take it that you have no wheel spats. What size of wheels are there on your plane?

Thank you Neil, interesting data. If anyone has the Revision 6 POH that would be interesting, too. But your real life data are even more interesting.

 

Sam

 

 

Yesterday I had the chance to visit Aero 2018 in Friedrichshafen. I even did see Dan Johnson! Like always there were a lot of new shiny planes on display, and then there were the performance sheets, some with numbers that seems reasonable, some with numbers too good to be true.

 

I know this phenomenon from reading, especially with aircraft that haven't flown at all so far, or are only a few flying hors old. As I am interested in building for example a Savannah S (well, my family does not agree yet), I would like to ask you weather you can write about the performance numbers you obtain with your Savannah. For example the advertised stall speed dirty icp gives did not change when MTOW changed form 472.5 kg to 600 kg.

 

So: What are the numbers you get?

 

For example stall speed dirty or clean at what weight, cruise speed at what rpm, take off roll and landing roll under which conditions? And also your empty weight with what equipment (e.g. lang range tanks or not).

 

That would be very interesting for me, thanks in advance!

 

Sam

 

 

I am maybe just two weeks ahead of you, and yesterday I had my second solo navigation flight. I knew better how to plan than the first time, I was more often ahead of the plane, so the flight turned out more relaxed. The down side: I realized even more errors I made :-). So I know again better, how and what to plan before the next flight.

 

Let's improve, and just never stop doing that!

 

Sam

 

 

a plane with a stall to cruise spread factor of 5.45??? I this on paper or real? How do they do that?

 

 

That is interesting, pretty much the same way I am going (well, you got much further, already building a plane).

 

I first thought the faster the better, and looked into the Vans. But realistically I must admit that much more than a rotax motor will be to expensive to fly for me, and that I always will be a low time pilot, so an easy flying aircraft is a must. And I guess a high wing will longer fit to my mission, as a late arrival.

 

So I looked into ICP Savannah, Rans Coyote or Raven, Aeroprakts A22 and the bush cat. Each one has its advantage. But the savannah has this active French dealer, the company near and a very reasonable price.

 

Did you fly the plane at the factory?

 

 

Then you are just a bit ahead of me in flying. And you are already building your own plane? That's quite a pace!

 

What were the reasons that you chose the Savannah S?

 

 

Hello Richard

 

I am doing circuits, still learning to land. The first solo is still to come, so a little short of half the way. Well, building a plane your side is the right side of the border .

 

Sam

 

 

Hello Richard

 

as the situation in Switzerland is not so clear (building means always experimental here, no UL self built) as in France and flying is expensive, I go for a PPL so I can rent a plane not to far away from home. I would like to build a plane, but so far the family is supporting the idea of flying, but not of building. So one after the other, maybe that changes with time.

 

But I saw, that the French dealer of Savanna's makes a good price for the kit.

 

You are living very close to Switzerland aren't you?

 

Sam

 

 

Hi IBob

 

you already started to unveil to me the amount of information!

 

You're from Waiarapa near Christchurch? I passed there about 30 years ago, when traveling. I liked NZ very much.

 

Blue skies as well

 

 

Impressive… Thanks both of you for the link and info. So far I wouldn't dare to build something like this. But maybe that's different when you have built an airplane yourself. Btw: What's the effect on the aerodynamics, as one of the advantages of the Savanna over the 701 is that the middle part of the wing also provides lift? But I should rather ask JG3 about this.

 

 

except for safety reasons and in emergency situations . But of course here engines are very obedient.

 

Well I hope yours doesn't fail, although not in Switzerland.

 

Thanks IBob for the numbers, will be things for two bikes, unless I find an even smaller one.

 

 

Hi Frank, thanks for welcoming me!

 

 

Thank you Bob for the detailed information and the pictures. So thats about 1 m large, 70-80 cm deep and around 50 cm high. Could hold a folding bike well, maybe even two, if they are very compact. This rises another question: the 20 kg indicated for the baggage area: Are they just a hint to prevent careless loading disregarding mass & balance, or is there more to it? Am I allowed to load more weight than these 20 kg, if mass and balance are within the envelope?

 

In Switzerland we are not allowed to land anywhere else than on airports or airstrips. These tend to be off the villages, so a bike would come in handy.

 

 

I had the chance to attend the Friedrichshafen Aero 2017. There I could sit in the Savannah S. A cool plane, I liked it a lot. I will try one, if I find a Savannah not to far away from my place.

 

While sitting in the plane I realized that there is nearly no space for luggage. Clearly no extended baggage compartment. Can anybody of you post a foto of the extended luggage compartment and maybe also add the dimensions of the space? I can't find anything about it on the icp site or on the sites of the dealers in Switzerland, France or Germany.

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Samy