rgmwa Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Just curious to know what sort of equipment/methods those with Rotax and similar engines have adopted to refuel with ULP. ie. fuel trailers, drums, pumps, filters, funnels, etc. No doubt this will have been covered before, but I can't find any threads on the topic, so any advice would be appreciated. rgmwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 I have a 6x4 trailer with 200 liter drum on it, with hand pump that has an aviation grade filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted May 17, 2010 Author Share Posted May 17, 2010 Thanks Bass Not sure what everybody else does, but from other comments I've seen it sounds like most pilots pick up a container of fuel at the service station on the way to the strip. I assume there's a decent filter somewhere in the loop as well. rgmwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 I assume there's a decent filter somewhere in the loop as well. You'd be surprised... I see many refuel directly from the jerry can; even it the can was filled through a filter, this is not good practice. The filter should be the last thing the fuel goes through before it enters your tank. (Barring the hose, of course.) There is no excuse for not using a Mr. Filter. Well, there may be one excuse: when was the last time you heard anyone say: "my car stalled today, called the RAA and it turns out the fuel was contaminated!"? Is it any more likely in our aircraft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Hi Plastic Jerry's and always through a Mr Funnel into the ac Mind you I don't ever see any contamination BUT it only takes once to be a potential problem. I have seen my Mr Funnel so full of unpassed water it filled to the top and stopped passing fluid when processing some old crappy fuel at home NO not processing for ac ( or in fact any engine) use :-) So they do seem to work fairly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 I have a 6x4 trailer with 200 liter drum on it, with hand pump that has an aviation grade filter. And I take it you use that up as soon as you can.... ;) Remember ULP doesn't store very well, and will go 'off' pretty quick. 20ltr plastic drums and a Mr Funnel here - for aircraft use anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 And I take it you use that up as soon as you can.... ;) Remember ULP doesn't store very well, and will go 'off' pretty quick. We go through a drum about every two weeks, sometimes one, sometimes three. The aircraft is used for training, it's not just me. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 We go through a drum about every two weeks, sometimes one, sometimes three. The aircraft is used for training, it's not just me. :) Good, just making sure, surprising sometimes how many people don't realize it can go off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Fuel only from the same major retailer and own test conducted at intervals for ethanol for this service station i use, 2 x 20 lt plastic fuel containers and Mr funnel when fueling the trike. Never a drop of fuel ever been in the tank without going through the funnel and fuel tank always topped of completely full prior to coming offshore to work for 2 weeks. And fuel tank drain after every fill and prior to next daily flight even if no fuel was added. Alf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Alf, how do you test for ethanol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markendee Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Ethanol test on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSQSuCiUjE" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Bass, I put about 200 ml of water in a glass jar and mark the jar at the water level, then add about 500 / 600 ml of fuel into the jar and shake the bejeezus out of it and then let it settle for 5 or so minutes, if the water level rises above the mark the fuel has ethanol in it. That is what and how i have been shown to detect ethanol in fuel. Cheers Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 There are several ways for fuels to go “off” however in this context I think people are concerned about octane depletion when using Mogas compared to Avgas. In very simple terms, Avgas has lower volatility and the components that give it its octane doesn’t evaporate off very easily … whereas Mogas has lighter more volatile components which evaporates more quickly thereby depleting the key octane boosting hydrocarbons in the process. High quality well sealed container kept away from heat will slow the speed of octane depletion in Mogas. Unfortunately aircraft fuel tanks aren’t the ideal container … best not to store for too long in your aircraft.... fresh is best. Cheers Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 Remember ULP doesn't store very well, and will go 'off' pretty quick. Hey T.....in what way does it not store well.....how does it go off??.....a genuine question. Sorry Cfi, just noticed your question - and my answer to that would be like Veverjg's (he would be your man anyway because he deals in that department - oils etc) Basically as Vev says, it looses it's "oomph" (to use a layman's term), so you won't be getting the full potential of it - also stuffs up plugs and what not if it's really old. People have different 'old' periods, but for an aircraft I reckon I wouldn't touch it if it's been sitting for a month at the latest. Store it out of the sun by all means... a cool area is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Tomo, What about two stroke fuel does it store OK in drums or not? for say the 503 in the Drifter. I never really though about it before. I mix two 50 ltr oil drums at a time and seal them, take out 20litres at a time in a jerrycan. Keep the Drifter full all the time. Monty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Tomo, What about two stroke fuel does it store OK in drums or not? for say the 503 in the Drifter. I never really though about it before. I mix two 50 ltr oil drums at a time and seal them, take out 20litres at a time in a jerrycan. Keep the Drifter full all the time. Monty How long do you take to use 100ltrs of pre mix? Mixed fuel will last less time, or shall we say loose it's octane rating quicker than non mixed fuel - the fuel will evaporate, the oil won't, so you may end up with a stronger mix than what you started with. Generally as a rule I don't like storing mixed fuel for long. Also take in mind the oil may 'settle', so ensure you shake it up, mix it, do whatever before you take from it. I know it's a pain, but I'd er on the side of storing mixed fuel if you can help it. Unless you're going to use it within the week etc... Vev probably will be better at explaining the pro's and con's of it than me though - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Agree Tomo ... as a general rule it's aways best to bend as close to the time of use and if you have to store any fuels do so in full high quality containers in a cool place for short preiods. Old saying ... "There's no fuel like new fuel and old fuel is like no fuel". Cheers Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Thanks Guy's, I fly nearly every day that I can so 100 ltrs lasts me about two weeks tops mostly about 7 to 10 days. depending on weather. but I will now just buy it as I need it. Thanks again, I just never gave it a thought. Monty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 Testing for Ethanol Here's a useful EAA video showing how to test for ethanol ... Hints for Homebuilders Video Player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete duncan Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 Would the addition of a percentage (10 or 20) of avgas to ULP extend its storage time. Thinking of for use in 4 stroke rotax. It seems to me that while fuel is stored in the refinery in massive tanks that possibly are not alwas full and have vents we may have the volatiles slightly depleated . Then it is transported to our local pumps where it is remixed with old fuel in vented tanks and into our drums with definite strong odour thus volitiles loss and finaly into our aircraft of choice ( more pongy odour ) where we (like the cigarette) have fun burning the costly stuff . So is there any affordable tool/instrument that could be used to determine the octane still present after all that. And does it realy matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 Hi Pete, Generally speaking, the storage and handling of fuels does deplete octane during the logistics process. However the claimed octane by the major oil companies is always understated…. a 98 RON octane is usually 99 when you buy it from the pump. In my view there isn’t too much to be concerned about, other than follow good handling and storage processes. If you blend in Avgas you do get a slow down in octane depletion on Mogas as Avgas has a much lower volatile product (iso-octane) as its base hydrocarbon chemical make up… additionally you will get an expediential octane bump as the lead in the avgas will react with the Mogas to increase octane. Cheers Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 Personally I like this method!:thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatrack Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 On my gyro, I hang a 20 litre jerry off my mast and siphon. Takes a minute and a half while I go over my machine. Not effected by wind, and no spillage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete duncan Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 Veverjg , thanks for the ulp / avgas info. Its good to have access to so much info through these forums ,I am glad to think that we never stop learning. The next question is..... if, say 10% avgas were to be used with premium ulp in a rotax 912 engine , would the extra lead cause the same type of buildup ( though more slowly ) as running straight avgas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 Hi Pete, Basically the ULP will act as a diluent and retard the tempo of the lead depositations … additionally, the combustion chamber will also benefit from the detergent additives in the ULP and help slow the build up but it won’t stop it, although you will see slightly lower concentrations over all. Hope that helps Cheers Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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