Bluey Posted April 6, 2012 Author Share Posted April 6, 2012 I too have heard quite a few stories of people buying damaged trikes that have not been repaired and paying good money for them only to find out from an instructor that it is not air worthy. I have so far only heard this about a few two strokes but I'm sure it would include four strokes out there. I'm with you Alf, I don't know how people do it? If an accident happens that could be attributed to the pre existing damage, then the previous owner could and should face criminal charges. I understand that the accident that fuelled this thread may be in a similar category. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I've seen at least one 582 experience a seizure on take off after 430 hrs of faultless service. There were no contributing factors that you could attribute to operator error. An engine that has run faultlessly to almost 50% more hours than the manufacturers mandated overhaul time is hardly evidence of unreliability to my mind Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 Which trike would you prefer to be flying, the two stroke with 400 hours or the four stroke with 400 hours? I didn't mean to imply that the rotax two stroke is unreliable. Quite the contrary, I am saying that it is more likely to suffer a sudden stoppage. If truth be told, I'd prefer a rotax two stroke on my trike to some other well known Australian made four strokes that power a well known Aussie made ultralight. In the trike, the rotax 912 must be one of the most reliable aircraft engines anywhere on the planet. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Which trike would you prefer to be flying, the two stroke with 400 hours or the four stroke with 400 hours? I'd like to be flying rather than thinking about how I can save enough money to buy the 912. It frustrates me that people use the engine outage idea as a justification for owning a four stroke. If the fan stops you should be within glide of a reasonable landing option, if not you shouldn't be there. The justification should be 1) In the long term they are make economic sense. 2) Faster cruise (with the right wing) and extra range 3) Braggin' rites:blah blah: Regards Bill 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 I agree with you Bill but the debate has become whether it is better to get a new 2 stroke trike or a used four stroke of about the same value. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 An engine that has run faultlessly to almost 50% more hours than the manufacturers mandated overhaul time is hardly evidence of unreliability to my mind Cheers John Crezzi, I have to agree with you on what you say. A 2 stroke in fact even though it works much harder than a 4 stroke has far less moving internal parts than a 4 stroke. I have a mate that got 860hrs out of his 2 stroke before he sent it to floods in Melbourne for a rebuild. Wal when he pulled it down rang and asked him what oil he had been using as the engine was still in great condition according to Wal. 2 strokes are far more critical when it comes to air leaks and will stop in an instant where the 4 banger will just slowly destroy it's self over a period of time if running a bit lean. I'm with Bill on his comment. I only bought the 912 as I knew I wanted to fly further and longer distances and IMO the 4 stroke although it cost a darn site more is actually cheaper to maintain in the long run. I would fly either anyday, the engine dont make it fly it only allows to to maintain flight while it is running. Cheers Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I agree with you Bill but the debate has become whether it is better to get a new 2 stroke trike or a used four stroke of about the same value.Bluey. Bluey, Me personally a brand new 2 stroke for 40 grand or a 500hr 4 stroke for the same price, i'd buy the 4 stroke myself. Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 Me too Alf and I recently did. Bluey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 Me too Alf and I recently did. Bluey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I agree with you Bill but the debate has become whether it is better to get a new 2 stroke trike or a used four stroke of about the same value.Bluey. Assuming the trike and wing are the same and the 912 is Alfs' 500hr job then it's not a difficult decision, all the above mentioned benefits with 1500 hrs before the manufacturers recommended TBO, or a 300 hr TBO Regards Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Assuming the trike and wing are the same and the 912 is Alfs' 500hr job then it's not a difficult decision, all the above mentioned benefits with 1500 hrs before the manufacturers recommended TBO, or a 300 hr TBO Regards Bill I wasn't quoting mine Bill it has 837 on it now, but I bet it is in better nick than some 500hr ones out there. and that is not Bragging rights either lol. Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I wasn't quoting mine Bill it has 837 on it now, but I bet it is in better nick than some 500hr ones out there. and that is not Bragging rights either lol.Alf Yeah I know Alf, I was just using your hypothetical one to try to high light all the other info you need before making such a decision, especially given all the talk of bodgey trikes being offered for sale. I'm goin to bed now:bye: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campslive Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 hi guys worst case scenario,i spoke to a guy on sat when i picked up my xt912 sst tundra, he went all the way to perth for a bargin got it back to yarrawaonga only to find the base bar was bent and had very low hrs, my point is thou,airborne only charged him $800 to fit the base bar and a new windscreen, even if you do find a cheap one that does need minor repairs its not like its going to break the bank to repair it,,, and as bluey stated there are alot on the market all around the $35 k mark with 300 to 400 hrs and all tourers with stk 3 wings ? personally i still cannot see why they are $88k brand new ,if i personally was going to spend $88k on an aircraft it would be enclosed and 100knots with all the bells and whistles, or $88k could also put you in the ga category with a full licence???? another quick point of concern is why are raa instructors on $120 an hr in your aircraft? or more ,even local ga instructors here [albury]are only $105 hr????? my doctor is only on $75.00 hr, are we pushing our sport into an unaffordable hobby???? Cheers gaham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 spending $800 isn't a lot when you are saving a few thousand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 spending $800 isn't a lot when you are saving a few thousand Yes, your right, that's not a big deal. The problem is when the unsuspecting buyer is led to believe that they are getting something that they're not only to find out that there are thousands of dollars in repairs to be made to reach an airworthy state. An experienced pilot can tell the difference and often knows what to look for but the novice can be totally in the dark and easily fooled by the dubious seller. We had a trike blown over by a rescue chopper here in the last week and while the wing received some damage the base appears ok. I still feel that the base needs to go back to airborne for a thorough inspection too. That's what I'd do anyway. Apparently the trike flipped 180 degrees and came down on its wing. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 As for how much instructors are charging, I know of a few that charge the same regardless of whether you are in your own trike or theirs and that's nearly $200/hr. so I guess it depends on the operator and their associated operating charges. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 just greed, works out a 2000hour plane can generate $300-400K over its lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Wow - I can't understand why more people aren't getting into such a guarenteed money making opportunity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 Most instructors I know work only part time and generally do less than 100 hrs a year (microlights). At this rate they earn around $20000/year and that's before costs such as: fuel, hangar fees, landing fees, membership fees and aircraft depreciation is taken into account. On top of this there is tax. A Microlight instructor would have to work in excess of 300 hrs/year to make a somewhat comfortable living. Even at that rate it is no more than the average wage. No wonder most have a full time job not flying related. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 I do believe though that they are definitely over charging you if they charge the same amount for training in your trike as they do for theirs. I always tell people that they should do all the training in the instructors machine until just before solo. A fair price would be normal cost minus fuel and estimted depreciation and wear and tear. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 When a flying schools goes broke the owners will still be blaming the students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I do believe though that they are definitely over charging you if they charge the same amount for training in your trike as they do for theirs. I always tell people that they should do all the training in the instructors machine until just before solo. A fair price would be normal cost minus fuel and estimted depreciation and wear and tear.Bluey. I think it would be more a matter of discouraging you from trying to learn on your own aircraft, as it would be more hassle for the instructor. After all the instructor should know his own trike, how it was maintained, etc, whereas with a students aircraft you have the added worry if the aircraft is ok. I guess the less outside factor the instructor has to worry about the better for the student. Also I wouldn't change the plane just before solo - solo is enough of new things to process even in the same trike. F_T - stop trolling, it's not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 The schools I've seen encourage students to fly their own trikes because it gives them practice in setting up and packing away their own machines. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 When a flying schools goes broke the owners will still be blaming the students. What's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Flying school isn't a business it's a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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