Guest pelorus32 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I just received an email from a contact of mine in Italy. He is a very nice guy and knows the ultralight business very well. I only post this because there is in fact a message in what he says for all of us. I have posted the relevant part of his email verbatim. His English is pretty good but under stress it gets a little wobbly. I'm sure you will get the gist. He had offered to take some photos for me at the airfield and then sent this: "...airfield has been closed due to fatal accident occurred on saturday with a CT (the italian distributor) that went over VNE and aircraft exploded on air just 50 meters over airfield. I don't know if you ever experienced CT aircraft, never fly it with pilots that want to show you how fast is, my suggestion, I saw with my eyes what happens if you feel greater than aircraft limits. I'm very afraid for that man, it was a great person." I have no reason whatsoever to doubt the veracity or accuracy of what this guy says. It is reported elsewhere that the guy was Vittorino Magnani. I cannot confirm or otherwise that bit. Kind regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Mike - it is true! I found out today that the Italian distributor of the CT was killed whilst doing aerobatics in a CTsw pushing it past Vne at an airshow. There is a video of it but the police have taken it so I hope it gets released so we can see how it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Subsequent to my previous email I have had another longer email from Italy. I won't publish it as much of it is private. Suffice to say that it does not appear that aerobatics were a factor. This appears to be a simple VNE accident - the a/c was doing in excess of the 166 knots VNE. I'm not going to comment further. I understand that there will be future and detailed press coverage of a whole range of issues with respect to this accident specifically and CT issues more generally from one of Italy's most respected aviation journalists. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Fellow fliers, I share this, not out of disrespect, but in the hope of drumming home the need to treat our recreational aircraft and flying privileges with due care. Only yesterday I bumped into a friend in Cooma and conversation led to my remarking about this Italian incident. To my astonishment my friend said he was acquainted with Vittorino and shared the cockpit of a CT with him while visiting Italy and went on to say "He was a very skilled pilot but he scared the **** out of me when flying base he put the CT through a roll without warning". Old or bold ... which is for you? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 It has been said that if you exceed Vne you become a test pilot and I for one have no wish to go that path, but I have heard people boasting of taking their aircraft past Vne. In the same vein I know pilots who reckon they can fly in cloud with a whisky compass and very little else. The only sure thing is that next time they try it may well be the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 I tend to agree Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 VNE. Ian, I agree completely. If you push your aeroplane to the limit of the airspeed envelope, you make it very susceptable to airframe failure from gust (vertical currents) loading. control surface flutter, canopy and cowl detachment etc. Comments such as those you pass on, I hope are rare, but if they are not, we as a movement have a serious problem, as we have no future. That is not an exaggeration, & I for one am considerably pi***d -off that my future hobby prospects can be jeopardised by complete idiots. I thought pilots were supposed to be smart. N... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 That Nev and slowing down in turbulence. Many will still do 100kts in a Jab in turbulence. It's no good. Slow down in turbulence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Turbulence penetration speed. A balance here, between controllability and airframe loading. Midway between stall and VNE is about it. Keep aircraft in level attitude and no sudden control inputs. Let the airspeed vary a little in the gusts. N.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Whilst not wanting to confuse Va - the manoeuvering speed with the turbulence penetration speed the principle is still the same and is worth understanding. Va is calculated as follows: Take Vs - the 1g stall speed of the aircraft - let's say for our aircraft it is 40 knots. Then take the design load of the aircraft - let's say it's 4.2g. The square root of 4.2 is 2.05. Multiply 40 knots by 2.05 and you have Va 82 knots. A peculiarity of Va is that because Vs increases with aircraft weight a more heavily loaded aircraft has a higher Va than the same aircraft more lightly loaded. The story being that the aircraft will stall before it exceeds the design load of the aircraft, thus unloading the wing. Controls should be able to be fully deflected at up to Va. The turbulence penetration speed is based on the same principle using some arbitrary gust speed - for CS23 it's 50 ft/s I think. In our aircraft Va often approximates turbulence penetration speed. What is also worth noting is that when aircraft are subjected to structural load tests for JAR-VLA certification the worst case for the vertical fin is a gust at Va and that is the case that is tested for. Beware high speed in turbulence or control deflections over 1/3rd at over Va. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 And in how many posts have I made the comment in respect of Skyfox TD's don't go over 70kts as there is little room for movement particularly if there is severe turbulence. Back off the throttle. This apply's to any aircraft, you may get away, once or twice, with an indiscretion and then on the other hand you may not, but you can be certain that one day it will bite you. Has anyone ever seen what happens to a power boat when hull design speed is exceeded? The hull comes apart, sometimes with explosive force and other times bit by bit. It's bad enough on water but in the air you don't get a second chance. Anybody who has been, at any time in their life, seriously into RC Modeling would understand completely what I'm talking about. There is little difference in principle between an ultra light, GA aircraft and large scale model's like I used to build, with 16ft wingspan's. The only real difference being that you could push the envelope and design spec's and when things came unstuck the last thing you see at the time of impact isn't you thigh bones being pushed up and out your chest and your brain exploding all over the back of your eyballs. You may feel that my comments are in bad taste but maybe it's about time we started to really look at the end result of a stupid act. I'm certain that most of the poor victims that being the family and friends of these cowboys would say that if it saves 1 life then show the mayhem and the blood and guts. We put fetid rotting teeth on cigarette packets to show the effects of smoking so why not show the end result of an act of stupidity on the part of those who choose to spread themselves all over the ground like strawberry jam. I'm not talking about the genuine victim of fate I talking about the idiot victim. I think that we have created a culture that flying is safer than most things we do on this earth and it can be, but only if the idiot factor is removed from the equation. And if my comments offend anyone I don't apologise for it. Rick-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Rick, excellent comments. I have often said it in many threads. I was lucky enough (or unlucky) to experience fatal aviation accidents during my past vocation. People would really truly be surprised just what one looks like in an aviation accident. You have to see it to believe it. Sometimes like a kangaroo that's been hit by a road train doing 140km/h on the highway. I'm sure you all get the picture. No offence here Rick, just reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disperse Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 im not extremly knowlagable on the subject........but it would seem we are jumping all over this bloke without knowing all the facts . and i can understand some of the anger some of you have towards so called cowboys but if it wern't for them pushing the limits we would'nt know where some of the limit's were. and by finding these limits ( sometimes with fatal results ) aircraft designers improve thier designs ultimatly makeing our planes better and safer im sure the first person that intentionaly flew straight up to the point that the plane stalled , then fell back towards earth , untill the pilot recovered control and flew again was called a cowboy but now we know him as a great aerobatic pilot cappable of pushing a plane to it's limit and surviving my point is .... I personaly am going to take my hat off to this man as a sign of respect and for showing me what NOT to do . cowboy or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigPete Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 People who push the limits are or should be test pilots equiped with parachute and many hours of experience. I will never be a "test pilot" or a "pioneer" to push the limits of my aeroplane - I love my children and grandchildren to much to leave this planet early. When you line up on the runway prior to take off - ask youself this question - "Do I want to die today? - No - then don't do anything stupid - don't break the rules. Flying won't kill you - but the sudden drop/stop will. And the potential to do so is during every flight we make. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 G'day Disperse, I don't want to pre-judge or "jump all over this guy" but I have to strongly disagree with you. First some facts: My friend was a friend of this guy, knew him, respected him and liked him. But read the excerpt that I posted in the first post in this thread. In addition the pilot stated his intention of a pass at in excess of Vne. Third the aircraft came apart at an altitude of 50 metres AGL. When aircraft are designed they are designed to a standard of some sort. Among other things the designer will calculate the harmonic frequencies for the aircraft and make an estimate of the Vne. During the flight test program - a program that goes on for many hours - at some point the test pilot will do a Vne test. That test will be conducted at altitude. The test pilot will be wearing a parachute. He/she will work up slowly towards Vne. They will be looking for all manner of signs of trouble - odd control behaviour, airframe "buzz", etc. Eventually they will get to and probably exceed Vne. At or around Vne they will conduct activities such as stick raps to ascertain the performance of the aircraft at Vne and whether it shows any sign of flutter. The test pilot will usually have extensive training for the task. Subsequent to the flight test the a/c designer will either confirm their Vne or set a different Vne or they will engage in a/c modifications and then re-test. The guy in Italy didn't show me the effect of exceeding Vne - all the other dead guys going back decades have already shown me that. The guy in Italy didn't prove anything about the aircraft - the flight test regime and the documented limits had already done that. If someone wants to be a test pilot then they should get trained, buy a parachute, understand that every day may be their last, and above all fly at altitude and understand that they are acting in an incremental and structured way utilising all the design detail and existing knowledge about the aircraft that they are flying and its testing to date. We have no capacity to fullfil those requirements in general. I'm with Pete, I fly for the joy of it and the utility of it. I love life and I love my friends and family. I want to come home to them. I am not a test pilot. Don't be a test pilot. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 If I may just add my own definition here. A cowboy is a term, probably wrongly used, that describes the Richard Craniums of the human race whereas a test pilot is a professional aeronautical flight characteristic analyst (or something like that). The diference between the two is chalk and cheese. The cowboy is just trying to show it's mates that it has big kahoona's whilst the test pilot is making sure that the damn contraption will fly well enough that it will only kill the cowboys not the innocent. Please the reality of it all is that the plane you fly has already been tested and past why try to see if it will really crack up after you exceed vne. Some people learn by the mistakes of others whilst those one's that don't usually set the example of what not to do for those who do learn by the mistakes of others. I don't believe that anyone here has tried to be hard on the poor guy that died in the Italian accident, his demise has just driven home a little further that which is at this time being discussed very emotively in another post in these forums. Please all just keep your ideas and comments flowing because that is from which solutions are reached ie an informed decision can eventually be made which hopefully will see all taking a serious look at their own actions and ability and thereafter improving their situation. It's not about how well I fly the plane it is the culmination of many things that give us the edge for self presevation and survival, it's called AIRMANSHIP, isn't it? Regards, Rick Never stop learning at least one new thing each day of your life and you will have the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disperse Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 point taken.. I am definitly no wanna-be test pilot and i always enjoy my comfort zone between myself and the limits. but this guy was a experienced pilot.......and i just think you shouldn't talk ill of the dead as they arent here to defend themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Disperse I really don't thing anybody was talking ill of the dead. It's a human reaction to go on the offensive in times of tradgedy and disaster. Particularly in the case of Australian's and there sense of humor under stress, they are just knee jerk reactions to a stressful sitiuation. Remember the dingo jokes and the Appolo mission. We at the moment being a privileged few able to enjoy the freedom of flight in a reasonably unrestricted environment are faced with, because of this lattest spate of incidents and accidents, possibly further regulation which may in turn totally destroy that which what we now have and enjoy. Regards, Rick-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 On a different note...I believe we are all test pilots when we hop into a recreational aircraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Darren. Why? I thought RickP had described it fairly well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Darren.Why? I thought RickP had described it fairly well It is an Oaks joke. "You getting in that plane son"? "Now you are a test pilot" ha ha type of thing. Nothing serious and no offence from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 NO OFFENCE TAKEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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