Over Flying AD

[emaroo]

The other night the I attended a presenatation from Airservices about controlled air space as well as a CASA re non towered AD. What was suprising to many of us was that we can not over fly an AD to look at wind socks or indeed to see if the AD is servicable. Also that you can ONLY join the circuit from 45degrees downwind or crosswind midfield or a straight in approach. You can not join from a long down wind.

 

Just interested if others are aware of the above.

 

Cheers Rick

 

 

[Guest David C]

I recently had my BFR and coincidentally raised the same points with the CFI . His reply was that you should have a good idea what the wind was doing anyway I'm not sure that I agreed with him . Also technically a midfield crosswind join is not permitted also , as I found out during my BFR debrief . I was told that the crosswind join should be made between midfield and the upwind end of the runway in use , in order to maximise the downwind leg length . I see the logic there , but it does raise the question , " if your unsure of the wind direction , how do you determine the upwind end of the runway ??" .

 

Food for thought me thinks..:confused:

 

Dave C

 

 

[Matt]

Have attended a few of these nights myself and have seen some inconsistent interpretations of rules by presenters and therefore some questions raised by the audience...as you've done.

 

While the "preferred" or "recommended" circuit joining methods are the 45 degree downwind and mid field crosswind, I wouldn't go so far as to say that you "can't" join in any other method so long as you complete the minimum 3 legs or flying a straight in approach. The AIP states (and I underlined "SHOULD" as it has a different meaning to "MUST"):

 

64.2 An aircraft approaching a non-towered aerodrome for a landing should join the circuit in accordance with para 64.5 unless it is:

 

a. following an instrument approach procedure in IMC; or

 

b. conducting a visual circling procedure in IMC after completion of an instrument approach procedure; or

 

c. conducting a straight-in approach in accordance with para 64.6.

 

64.5 Circuit Entry

 

64.5.1 Entry to the circuit depends upon the direction of arrival and traffic conditions. The recommended methods for entering the circuit are as follows:

 

a. From the live side, arrive at the appropriate circuit altitude before entering the circuit. Approach the circuit on a course 45° to the downwind leg and join the circuit abeam the middle of the runway; or

 

b. From the dead side, arrive at the appropriate circuit altitude before entering the circuit. Turn crosswind between the departure end of the runway and the middle of the runway. Give way to aircraft established in the circuit and on the 45° entry to downwind.

 

 

Some aerodromes (including ours at Penfield) have specific procedures which contradict these due to contra circuits for GA/Ultralights as well as controlled airspace being 1400' above the airfield.

 

I've not hear or read anything which restricts overflying the field to determine wind, field conditions etc. - the expectation would be that this is done above circuit so as not to conflict with other traffic...and therefore showing good airmanship which is the aim of the game.

 

If in doubt, check the VFR Flight Guide and AIPs for the actual "can do" and "can't do" regarding operations at non towered aerodromes.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

The other night the I attended a presenatation from Airservices about controlled air space as well as a CASA re non towered AD. What was suprising to many of us was that we can not over fly an AD to look at wind socks or indeed to see if the AD is servicable. Also that you can ONLY join the circuit from 45degrees downwind or crosswind midfield or a straight in approach. You can not join from a long down wind.Just interested if others are aware of the above.

Cheers Rick

G'day Rick,

 

it appears that you may have been listening to a "random interpreter" as this advice doesn't accord with the written rules.

 

It frustrates me when the people who are supposed to give definitive advice provide advice that is at variance with the regs/legislation.

 

Davidc: I was told that the crosswind join should be made between midfield and the upwind end of the runway in use , in order to maximise the downwind leg length

This advice is also dangerous. The pass should be made between the downwind threshold and mid-field. This is particularly so with the advent of some of the recent rec aircraft. One up in some of those aircraft it is possible to be at 1000' by the upwind end of the runway or to have turned before then and be at 1000' and in potential conflict with someone joining crosswind.Matt: good on you for going to the correct source.

 

I note that the statement of mine about joining is somewhat at variance with 64.5.1 (b) but my feeling is that you should err towards midfield rather than the upwind end of the runway.

 

As for the idea that you should not overfly the airfield my response is that is simply bollocks except where local circumstances/rules require otherwise. Overflight should be at circuit +500 with let down on the dead side if one exists. I acknowledge the problem of what "circuit +500" means given that there are 3 potential circuit heights.

 

I guess that I find it frustrating when we get these idiosyncratic interpretations rather than simply the rules. There's enough confusion without this.

 

Must be grumpy this morning.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[emaroo]

Just out of interest the presenter of the seminar official title was Aviation Safety Advisor Adel & SA and last year before starting with CASA was in charge of the largest flight school out of Parafield. Part of his role is to travel Aust talking about uncontrolled AD so you would think he should know what he is on about.

 

I do not necessarily believe he agreed with the rule but was definite that it is against the rules to overfly even 500' above circuit height. This was a shock to most who attended. The theory being that we should know the wind direction before we arrive.

 

Cheers Rick

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Rick,

 

who am I to disagree with this guy? And before I start I'm certainly not shooting the messenger - you - rather I'm commenting about the message. But let's remember a few things:

 

• If you are in the circuit or approaching a GAAP or some other controlled airspace then you will be told the active;
   
   
  
• If you have the appropriate avionics you can get the ATIS and then judge the active;
   
   
  
• If you have just been out to the training area and nothing has changed since you left then you will know the active and the status of the strip - short of a new obstruction;
   
   
  

 

 

But a lot of the time we are operating at small strips, we may not have been to the strip before, there may be no UNICOM or ATIS, we may not have the capacity to listen to the ATIS, indeed we may not have a radio, it may just have been raining or there may be a car rally on the strip and the strip is therefore closed.

 

It seems to me that it if we really are not allowed to overfly then that is simply bureaucracy gone berserk. It is the biggest piece of crass stupidity I have ever heard. But of course not more than we have grown to expect from CASA.

 

Coming into a strange strip, or indeed just coming back from a trip somewhere I like to have a look at what I'm getting myself into. I think it is a matter of safety.

 

 

I'd be interested in the views of others here. Rant Over!!

 

It appears I'm no less grumpy than this morning!

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Further to my last Rant!

 

AIP ENR 1.1 (June 2008 rev)

 

64.1: Prior to entering the circuit at a non-towered aerodrome, aircraft should avoid the flow of traffic until established in the circuit. For example, wind and landing direction indicators can be checked while at an altitude of +500 feet above the circuit height.

 

Note: If jet, turbo prop. or high performance piston aircraft operate at the aerodrome, 2000 ft AGL is a safer height to remain clear of all circuit traffic.

 

 

 

That's my bold type for emphasis but their italics.

 

It seems to me Rick that that bloke should read his AIP.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Yenn]

If it is not legal to overfly an airstrip, why are there instructions on radio procedures for overflying?

 

The correct method is to advise on radio if you have one, overfly at circuit height + 500' let down on the dead side and then join on a crosswind leg. The problem is knowing circuit height, but overfly at 2000' and you can't go wrong.

 

 

[poteroo]

Agree with you Pelorus. At a recent CASA presentation here, ( a CTAF ®), the advice given was overfly 500 ft above the highest circuit altitude believed to exist .... for that airport. In our case, with loads of pure jet and turbine traffic, that's got to be 500ft above 1500ft AGL. If you are circuit area at a very small country strip - which is not known to be used by high performance aircraft - then you assume 1000 AGL is the highest circuit height.

 

Yes, I realise that you could be in conflict with a Caravan, or even a PC-12, but it's unlikely, and you need to keep an ear on local CTAF freq or 126.7...whichever is the case.

 

If we take this business of possible 1500 AGL circuits to the extreme, (ie, adopt the precautionary principle), then it's going to become chaotic. ( I guess if we want to be absolutely safe, as in the PP, then we'd not fly anywhere !!)

 

CASA had absolutely no answer to the way the 45 degree join of downwind was ever going to accomodate aircraft arriving from the 180 degrees on the circuit side of the runway-in-use. I have seen RPT, turbine CHTR,and everyone else, making 90 degree turns onto the downwind leg in several locations around Aus. I can't see a problem with this......it's really 2 x 45 deg turns on end...so must fit the advice???

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest J430]

emaroo/poteroo

 

Who ever said that you can not join on a long downwind....... Nobody!

 

And YOU CAN overfly, and if in doubt do it at 2000AGL, if you are sure there will be no High Perf a/c use 1500' AGL.

 

A new student pilot commented on this and found that at 2000 or more above AGL he could get a better mental picture anyway, then track a few miles away and descend and join as required.

 

Its not rocket science just too much misinformation that annoys me.

 

Pelorous32

 

J:wave: