motzartmerv Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Does anyone know the rules regarding having or rather useing avgas out of bought drums??...the club im flying with are looking at upgrading acft but it looks like they are going to be limited by the availability of fuel...can a rec acft be refueled from a 44 of avgas?? i know the GA rules don't allow it.. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoast Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Motza....not sure quite what you mean when you say that fuelling from 44g (200L) drums is not permitted in GA? Perhaps I misunderstood the question. There are places I fly to in WA that Avgas is only available in drums, although you have to buy the whole 200L. Check this CASA article out. http://casa.gov.au/fsa/2003/mar/32-34.pdf Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J430 Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 i know the GA rules don't allow it.. You need to get out more Merv....1, need to see more drums of AVGAS in use, 2 reading too many rule books! If its true....ssshhhhhhhh before anyone else finds out! J:thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 12, 2008 Author Share Posted July 12, 2008 lol..sorry..shoulda been more clear.. the vesel the aircraft is being refuled from needs to be authorised.. ill have a look for the rule for you if you like...could take a while, hehe...my question should ahve been, are the 44 gal drums approved?/ And, by the way, just because some dude does it somewhere, doesn't make it legal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 12, 2008 Author Share Posted July 12, 2008 Found something...don't know if its what i need... i know that in GA you aren't allowed to put fuel back into the plane after youve drained it..because the container isn't autherised.... but this is a CAO part 20, section 20.9 3.4 It deals directly with refueling from drums.. So, it seems we can, but how to filter it?? 3.4 All fuel shall be strained or filtered for the removal of free or suspended water and other contaminating matter before entering the aircraft tanks. Note: Attention is drawn to the special standards of filtration which may be specified by the manufacturers of certain types of engines. e.g. turbine engines and direct-injection piston engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest High Plains Drifter Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 motza, in my mustering days, I've used a 44 drum pump that had an in-line filter - ryco I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 12, 2008 Author Share Posted July 12, 2008 Ok thanx HPD..i'll check that out.. How did u arrange the earthing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest High Plains Drifter Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 How did u arrange the earthing? Large screw driver banged into ground, with a jumper lead to the drum - and aircraft. ... and I'm not saying that is the best way to do it. I think your on the right track by looking very closely at aircraft refueling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 When you refuel from a drum. Place drum upright and let it settle for a period of time. undo lge stopper and put some water detecting paste onto the end of the spear and insert into drum. remove and check colour. tilt drum and place timber chock under drum. so lge hole is highest. earth drum to A/C and to groundpoint. make sure earth clamps are on BARE not painted metal. destatic yourself by touching a/c, not drum. reinsert pump spear and refill aircraft. leave the few lts on lower side of drum in the drum. (or your car) if any crap or water is in the drum it will stay here. do not use drums that have been stored upright in the open especially if they have water sitting on the top. expanding and contraction of the drum WILL introduce the water into the fuel. observe the use by dates. carry your own fresh water detect paste. drums stored on the ground in open should be laying on timber with the bung ends higher and horizontal. show good airmanship. when refueling is complete make sure you put the empty drum where it cannot be blown away by propwash and strong winds. i once chased someone elses empty drum across the hardstand at mangalore diving on it about 10ft from a Westwind Jet. (whew). Oh and save your back. get help to toss the drum. and observe the "distances from" in the regs and refueling guides. you never know who is watching ready to dob you in for your ignorence. Ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngmic Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 i know that in GA you aren't allowed to put fuel back into the plane after you've drained it..because the container isn't autherised.... Not sure this is correct either, I have heard plenty of engineers regurgitate this one over the years and my understanding is that if an authorized aircraft maintenance facility has a dedicated and controlled vessel they may defuel and then refuel from it. But I may be wrong. As for a private pilot I am not aware that you can not defuel into a clean container and then refuel again from it. During the 90's I operated an aviation business that sole fuel supply was from re-used drums, CASA had no problem with this. Today there exist a major airfield that operates many aircraft fueled solely from re-used drums. Follow Ozzie's sound recommendations and you'll be right. Visit a Mcnaught stockist for a good rotary pump and filter, there are also small electric and engine powered pumps on the market as well. Fueling from drums should be no more risky than any other method if you bone up on the guidelines and use common sense. Having said that I have witnessed a 1/2 inch long spark jumping from the fuel hose off a 1 litre stroke Mcnaught fuel pump back to the drum due to poor bonding. And an old boss reports the same with Jet A throwing a spark from the hose back to the wing when refueling an Ag machine. Both cases, poor bonding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J430 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 The drum pumps I have used come complete with a bloody big filter gascolator and earth clip! She's all good! J:thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 yea, cool thanx guys, lots of good stuff there.. The rules are foggy, but if your wanting to get clarity, ring up the friendly airbp guy and tell him you want to fill some jerry cans with avgas froma bowser, the reply will be a flat .."no way".. i got stuck in qld without fuel once and thought i could rock up to the airstrip with a couple of mower tins and she'd be cool...the dude just laughed at me and said "your kiddin aint ya"..he reckons that the vessel needs to be approved and the dude pumpin it has to check all the vessels and stuff...it was crazzy..He said that a few years ago it wasn't a problem, but the rules have been changed and they are crackin down on it.. Obviously as others have said the static is a real problem.. cheers to all for the advice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngmic Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Motzartmerv, From time to time I rock on up to the local ** bowser at the countries busiest GAAP airport swipe my ** carnet card and in full view of the tower, numerous flying schools, and the Air ** compound I gleefully fill the odd plastic Jerry can. No one gives a rats, and I have spoken to the refueler on the matter. However if I was to call the Avgas tanker over or ask the refueler to fill my Jerries from the bowser...no way. At this point the Air ** OH&S policy steps in. One way to test the fogginess of the "rules" is if you are ever asked to stop fueling your own container, ask the person requesting you to stop if he/she has the power of arrest, if they don't ask that they summon a police officer and charge you with an offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 You will also get away with stating that the fuel is for a race car or bike and not for an aircraft. When racing season started we found it better to sell them the fuel rather than they come back after hours and drain it from the aircraft. The container MUST be of the approved type. if it was going to be used on the road we added state road tax. It was good when an aircraft had its tanks drained as it went straight into our cars as it could not be returned to the aircraft. ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Best not to have the big bung at the top side of a tilted drum. That puts the small bung at the bottom, where it can suck in water. Have them both level and the low point at 90 degrees. I have been using this method for 5 years, Gladstone airport allow me to fill Avgas drums, they have to be present to open the wide gate, but I can fill any other cans using a swipe card after opening the man gate myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Ian if you were referring to my above post i will clarify. if not pls ignore. when you are pumping your fuel tilt the drum. pump side high. leave a couple of lts in the drum. any water and crap will stay in the drum. I never lay a drum down and tilt it. i lay them on two lengths of 6x6in treated pine with the bungs horizontal. I have never had a spark jump from the nozzel. i also touch the nozzel on the airframe before putting into the tank. in my kit i have a canvas mat about a foot sq. it has a hole in the center for the fuel opening. it is stiffened with 4 flat pieces of timber. simply unroll and lay over the tank opening remove cap and insert nozzel. not only will the mat help prevent a spark jump. it will save the paint from that clumbsy refueller. i pay paticular attention when those dry westerlies start around late August. I become the one that throws the spark. There is also the Mobile refueling guide. this is the way to do it. small portable elec pump with built in lge cartridge filters plugged into a 25,,000lt tanker. i treat fuel the same no matter what it is. remember. one flash an yous ash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I was referring to the angle of the drum when in storage. I have seen drums which are tilted so that one of the bungs goes under water on top of the drum and the low pressure inside the drum caused by cooling sucks water in. Never trust the seals on the bungs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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