John Brandon Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Some time recently (I guess within the past 10 years) an aircraft departed Essendon at night for some point north carrying (I think) urgently needed aircraft spares. The aircraft disappeared from the Airservices plot somewhere around Mangalore and was later found to have suffered inflight breakup due to severe turbulence. I seem to recall that it was a Shrike Commander but I can't find any reference to it in the ATSB accident investigation reports. Does anyone have any information which would enable me to find the report? cheers John Brandon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 John, I think the accident you are talking about was just over a year ago, an aero commander enroute from essendon to shepparton carrying spares for another aero commander with 2 pob, broke up 37 nm from essendon. you can find the report in the atsb site www.atsb.gov.au got to aviation safety click on it got to accident and incident reports , you will find it on the lower half of page 3, the full investigation report is there to download. hope this helps Alf Jessup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vme Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Hi John Only prelim at this stage. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2007/AAIR/aair200704734.aspx Regards ..Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brandon Posted July 15, 2008 Author Share Posted July 15, 2008 Found the report, thanks Alf and Vince. I could have sworn that accident happened at least five years ago, just proves time accelerates as you age. cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Hmm..flew me one of them once.. awesome plane to fly, but the PIC (not me) was a little enebriated at the time...He had his 8 hours bottle to throttle, but had many many bottles.. so the 8 hours didnt do much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Hi John, there is another very similar accident with another Aero Commander in Tasmania about 5 years ago. It is instructive to read the final report for that accident and the prelim facts for this one. The Tassie one is not so overtly flying in bad conditions but I suspect it has many similarities to the one that killed Janelle and Steve north of Melbourne. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/AAIR/aair200400610.aspx Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brandon Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hi John,there is another very similar accident with another Aero Commander in Tasmania about 5 years ago. It is instructive to read the final report for that accident and the prelim facts for this one. The Tassie one is not so overtly flying in bad conditions but I suspect it has many similarities to the one that killed Janelle and Steve north of Melbourne. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/AAIR/aair200400610.aspx Regards Mike Thanks Mike, It's very interesting that both aircraft seem to have suffered exactly the same simultaneous negative g outer wing separations at or near the main spar splice joints. The Tasmanian final accident investigation report appears to favour the autopilot control of the elevator trim tabs over-riding an inexperienced pilot's manual attempts to pull the nose up. Even if the Victorian aircraft suffered a runaway electric trim or autopilot the pilot's 1000 hours or so in that aircraft type would lead to the expectation that such situations would be countered before nearing Vne. Will just have to wait until the investigation is concluded but can't help thinking turbulence played a significant role. The Shrike Commander has 6.5 degrees wing washout and one thing that all recreational pilots should bear in mind is that wing washout really compounds negative loads at high speed. The following is an extract from the safety article appearing in the November 2007 issue of the RA-Aus magazine. Wing washout: handy at low speed, not so good at high speed! Wings incorporating geometric washout have a significantly lower aoa towards the wing tips. At high speed when the wing is flying at low aoa there are high aerodynamic loads over the wings but the outer sections could well be flying at a negative aoa and the reversed load in that area, or just a badly distributed load due to the wing shape, will bend the wingtips down, possibly leading to outer spar fracture. cheers John PS I wonder what Bob Hoover thinks of this? Didn't he borrow a Shrike Commander from Essendon for his famous display after CASA gave him a licence and a poke in the eye to FAA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hi John, I may not have expressed myself well. I wasn't suggesting that the genesis of the failure was the same, simply that it appeared that the failures were very similar, right down to the way the outer wing section appears to have led to the tailplane failure. It made me wonder if I would trust that aircraft type if I was in a position to fly it. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 In the most recent one the weather the time was atrocious and all relevant warnings were supplied and ignored. There is not much more to it than that. If you push the boundaries you will reap the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brandon Posted July 18, 2008 Author Share Posted July 18, 2008 Hi John,I may not have expressed myself well. I wasn't suggesting that the genesis of the failure was the same, simply that it appeared that the failures were very similar, right down to the way the outer wing section appears to have led to the tailplane failure. It made me wonder if I would trust that aircraft type if I was in a position to fly it. Regards Mike Yes Mike, quite true, I would be wary too. Hence the reference to Bob Hoover who did a lot of very thrilling air displays in the Shrike Commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Longden Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 In late Sept 1994 there was one lost en route to Lord Howe. It was being run by a Lord Howe based charter firm under the guise of RPT. Anyway, my then missus and I were called by the company to see if they could bump our flights - to THAT one. We could'nt, as we were 400km from Mascot, and about to tie the knot that afternoon. So there is ONE good thing to have come out of that (failed) marriage, I guess.. :confused: Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 AERO COMMANDER WING INTEGRITY. The research into the spar faiures of aero commander aircraft is comprehensively covered in files on the CASA website, and due credit must be given to the australian input and investigation of the problem with in flight wing failures. The original Rockwell design has a bend in the spar (or spar cap) cold formed during manufacture, which is subject to fatigue in service. I can't give you a direct link, but I don't think you will have a great degree of difficulty in seeking it out . The male deceased person had a significant involvement with Aero Commander aircraft commercially. John as far as I know the aircraft flown by Bob Hoover In australia ,was provided by Steve? Knott at Essendon. Bobs licence (cancelled in America) was revalidated in Australia , by Barry Diamond, a CASA employee, enabling the fortunate amongs us, to witness what a great flyer Bob is. The cancellation, was based on the age of the applicant, and was quite political at the time, in the USof A. Nev.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 The research into the spar faiures of aero commander aircraft is comprehensively covered in files on the CASA website, and due credit must be given to the australian input and investigation of the problem with in flight wing failures. The original Rockwell design has a bend in the spar (or spar cap) cold formed during manufacture, which is subject to fatigue in service. I can't give you a direct link, but I don't think you will have a great degree of difficulty in seeking it out . The male deceased person had a significant involvement with Aero Commander aircraft commercially. John as far as I know the aircraft flown by Bob Hoover In australia ,was provided by Laurie Knott at Essendon. Bobs licence (cancelled in America) was revalidated in Australia , by Barry Diamond, a CASA employee, enabling the fortunate amongs us, to witness what a great flyer Bob is. The cancellation, was based on the age of the applicant, and was quite political at the time, in the USof A. Nev.. One of the two people killed in the most recent Aero Commander accident was Steve Knott - also based at Essendon and Cairns. The pilot was an employee of his, Janelle Johnston. I wonder if Steve was a relation of Laurie Knott - seems likely. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 First name. Mike, I am not sure of the name and had amended it to steve followed by a question mark. It appears the original still appears on my post so I will amend it.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefootpilot Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 These aircraft are getting very old and tired now. most of the Shrikes are owned and operated by GAM and are engaded in night frieght operations. GAM do overhaul them to a very nice standard but still when they are reaching 30,000 hours maybe its time to push them up against a fence. I have a few friends flying or have flown these machines and they say its always in the back of there mind as they are in the pitch black trying to find there way around big CU's. Oh the the one that was leant to Bob Hoover actually came back with a bent wing spar and had to be rebuilt. Awesome pilot but they machine was not meant for what he was doing to it. And anyone who thinks they can do aero's in a normal cat aircraft should search youtube for the Partenavia doing aerobatics. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 aero commander and turbo commander share the same wing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefootpilot Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 I'm not 100% sure but I believe so Ozzie I haven't flow either but have worked around them and believe the Turbo is just a Shrike with Garret (dash 10's??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 The Seaview accident (turbo commander) comes to mind as well. it flew into known icing then is belived to have broken up on way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 In light of the information at http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf I have a suggestion. Limit all Aero Commander twins to single place operation. Require by AD that a placard be fitted in front of the pilot and only occupant to read "THIS AIRCRAFT HAS A SERIOUS DESIGN DEFECT AND IS PRONE TO SUDDEN AND FATAL WING COLLAPSE". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Thats a pretty damning report there Nong...:raise_eyebrow: I think I'd be thinking twice before putting my bum in one after reading that...:yuk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Baphomet Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I particularly liked this little gem. "CAA inspected the grain structure of all 75 Australian Aero Commanders by May 1992. Of those, 7 had fine grains like S/N 11545 or something intermediate. Those aircraft were either grounded until the defective spar caps were replaced, or sold overseas." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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