Did your Engine reach TBO?

[Guest AusDarren]

I'm interested to find out from real world experience, is it likely to actually have your engine reach TBO without something necessitating an earlier than scheduled overall?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

I'm sure a few people will be interested.

 

Regards,

 

Darren Latta

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I have been involved in a school where the 2.2's (several of them) have been run to 1,000 hours. Some would argue that they made it to 1,000 hours and others would argue that they didn't!

 

In a training environment you will definitely need a full top-end overhaul (inc new valves etc) at 1,000hrs. Private is another story completely, because although it will get a much easier life in general, a lot more calendar time will have passed by the time TBO is reached, thus rust / corrosion etc will come into play. Earlier models had problems with fly-wheel bolts breaking so they will need a close eye on them come top-end overhaul time.

 

The theoretical bottom end cam time is 4,000 but there's no reason in the eyes of Jabiru that it can't go to 6,000+, in theory.

 

If I personally had a 2.2 online training, it would be a top end at 1,000 hours and a bottom end, inc top end again at around 1,600 hours.

 

If I had a private Jab in the hangar and I was doing around 100-200 hours a year, I'd be having a good look at compressions and condition at600 hours and definitely a top end at 1,000 due to the time that will have passed.

 

That's just my 2 cents worth, but definitely a good topic of conversation.

 

If it were a 912... now that would be a different story completely.

 

 

[Wilfred]

J200 6 cylinder

 

Top end overhaul needed at 700 hours (hours completed in 18 months)

 

Factory exchange engine was fitted instead of overhaul due to attractive price and time constraints.

 

Now have 450 hours on the new engine

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

700 hours is not very many for a private aircraft. What happened to the engine at 700 hours that it needed a top end overhaul? I would say that this would be unusual. Perhaps it was running high temperatures and the valves were pulling in? A top end overhaul can be completed in around 1.5 days, as there's not a lot of work in it. Just interested to know as it sounds quite young in engine terms.

 

 

[Wilfred]

Any major work on the aircraft is done by Jabiru and as it was at a time when they were extremely busy and with a lot of holidays coming up we opted for an exchange engine and fitted by the local L3. Jabiru gave us a good price at the time.

 

The hours seem to be about what you get talking to other users here and in the states, any higher is more the exception than the norm.

 

Maintenance is every 50 hours ,oil, filters, tappetts, etc.and allways by the same LAME.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi all

 

What does those people who have an intimate knowledge of J2.2 engine think about the modification to the crankcase "vent" system? as in the latest AD See RAA mag for detail.

 

I'm not of the opinion this was a good solution to the problem. ie negative pressure buildup in the rocker cover area. A far better solution should have been found than this.

 

Micgrace :)

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I've spoken to them about it and spoken to people who have done the engine course. Finding the problem (that caused the oil to break down) took them ages and cost them one h*ell of a lot of money. It will definitely increase engine and oil longevity which can't be a bad thing.

 

There is a much better explanation in the full AD which is located on the Jabiru website.

 

 

[TechMan]

My 2c this time. Personally, drilling a hole into an engine which allows air to get in, will also allow 'other stuff' to get in. Even though it is only a tiny hole, if it is based at the bottom of the fins as depicted in the SB, surely either a) water can get in or b) the hole is going to be blocked up with dirt that it will have no use at all.

 

Having said that, the SB works well on Jabiru aircraft installations. Having a Jab motor fitted to another type of aircraft will not guarantee the results as described in the SB.

 

A very recent occurrence of this resulted in an aircraft losing oil through the vent holes , followed by smoke out of the engine bay on take off. The position of the breather tube did not make a difference. The picture below shows the modification to the engine that worked for him. This was discussed with Jabiru and they know of this case.

 

Make your own mind up as to what the better 'solution' is.

 

Chris

 

The tube is plugged in to the back of the ram air ducts - filtered of course, and provides just enough pressure to relieve the vacuum. The holes that were drilled previously have been plugged up again.

 

 

 

[rick-p]

Clem, why wouldit be a different story if it was a 912?

 

RICK P rick-p

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Oh, because a 912 will practically go forever in comparison to a Jab engine, however the complexity is that they cost more and are a more complex engine. TBO for a 912 is 1,500 hours and they require 1 head tighten at 400 hours and that's about it. Pretty much if you look after a 912 and don't "stuff" with it; if it has fuel, it generally won't stop, particularly in a factory installation. They are extremely reliable engines, there's no secrets there. There are 912's out there happily cruising with 4000 - 5000 + hours on the original block.

 

 

[Ross]

Hi Clem

 

My information on the current Jabiu engines is they haverevised their maintenance frequencies back in 2004.

 

Depending on the serial number of the engine, they require a top overhaul at 1,000 hrs and a major at 2,000 hrs for both the 2200 motor and the 3300 motor.

 

http://www.jabiru.net.au/news/technical/Engine%20files/Revised_Jabiru_Engine_TBO.pdf

 

See the above information on the Jabiru site.

 

Regards

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

That's correct Ross. My earlier post was pertaining to the rebuild time on a Rotax 912.

 

1,000 and 2,000 israther optimistic to say the least. If you let it go that long, you'll end up with valves pulling through the heads or with very little meat left on them. It's a fact of life I'm afraid and really depends on the type of treatment that it gets. 700-800 for the top end is more realistic. Vigilant compression/ leakdown tests are required at 600-700+ hours and at around 700 hours it would be a good idea to pull of a couple of heads for a closer look-see.

 

 

[Guest DonC]

Depends totally on how you treat them. I sold a 2200 at 760 hrs and compressions were the same as new. Oil and filter change at 25 hrs , watch the temps - simple!

 

 

[Ross]

Hi Clem & DonC

 

I would be much more interested and would like to know for both the cases quoted what were the engine numbers. The point is the engines have changed with type of material used, manufacturing methods and recommended operational temperatures pertaining to head temps ie valves. So things have changed since the 1600 motors and the early 2200 motors.

 

I do not think that the information of wear and tear means much unless the model and engine numbers are identified and perhaps the job that the aeroplane was doing. The same comments apply to the Rotax engines as well because there have been many changes to them as well. Just go to both their web sites to see the changes that they tell you about let alone the ones they do not.

 

Regards

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I speak of LSA55's with age of less than 2.5 years. 4 in total, all similar hours < 1,000 for top end. I'm yet to see how J160's are travelling with the hydraulic lifters. I doubt that they will be any different to the solid lifters. Compression is not necessarily an indication; best to spend the afternoon and remove a couple of the hotter cylinders at perhaps 600-700 hours for closer inspection. Mine will be coming off at around that time for a look.

 

 

[Ross]

Hi Clem

 

The engine number of my 2200 engine which came with J160 kit #14 is 22A 1906.

 

I think that my engine has not had all the revised oil pump mods according to its engine number.:confused:

 

I am inserting a text version of the Jabiru revised TBO notice posted on the Jabiru company site.

 

It is interesting to note that the revised TBOs do not apply to 2200 motors with serial numbers before 711 or before 119 for the 3300 motor.

 

So what changed in the motors at those serial numbers and where were they up to building and selling kits when that happened?

 

I was also under the impression that manufacturing of the LSA55s virtually ceased, but not quite, once they started building the J160s.

 

JABIRU AIRCRAFT PTY LTD

 

P.O. Box 5186 Phone: +61 7 4155 1778

 

Bundaberg West 4670 Fax: +61 7 4155 2669

 

Queensland, Australia Email: [email protected]

 

SERVICE BULLETIN.: JSB 001-1

 

Subject: Revise Jabiru Engine TBO’s.

 

Models affected: 2200 & 3300.

 

Date: 11th May 2004

 

Time of Compliance: None.

 

Date: 11th May 2002

 

Jabiru Aircraft Pty Ltd

 

Document No: JSB001.1

 

Filename:

 

Page:

 

Revised Jabiru

 

Engine TBO'su

 

Service Bulletin

 

2 of 2

 

Revised Jabiru Engine TBO’s

 

Jabiru Engines 2200 A,J & B models & 3300 A model.

 

Top End Overhaul at 1000 hrs & Full Overhaul at 2000 hrs.

 

For a top end overhaul to be undertaken the following criteria must be met.

 

1. Engine serial number from 711 (2200)

 

119 (3300)

 

Earlier serial number engines would usually have a full overhaul at 1000hrs.

 

2. Has not met with an internal partial failure or exhibit abnormal noises or wear

 

patterns.

 

3. At least 1 oil filter prior to the overhaul has been opened and inspected and found

 

to be free of bearing material.

 

4. General running and maintenance of the engine has been satisfactory, no undue oil

 

burning or usage, no undue oil leaks, no undue stoppages such as prop strikes, no

 

internal ingestion of foreign bodies or materials or internal contact.

 

5. Engine is in running condition and airworthy.

 

Now the time for a full overhaul has been increased to 2000hrs providing that the criteria

 

above is met before and after the top overhaul and that a top overhaul is carried out at

 

1000hrs.

 

For details on the steps involved in top overhaul contact Jabiru Aircraft.

 

Note the two different dates on the top of the Jabiru note. What was page 1 was dated 11th May 2004 and the top of page 2 was dated 11th May 2002.

 

No doubt more service bulletins will appear as the engines get more hours up. This particular one is not the latest.

 

Regards Ross

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Post removed for political reasons unrelated to this forum.

 

ClemBrown

 

 

[Ross]

Hi Clem

 

I am not trying to denigrate your advice on frequency of servicing or inspection of the engine.

 

On the contrary I would like to know more about it and what items can and do go wrong. It seems to me that there is a lot more you could tell us to look out for especially with your experience compared to us novices with none.There must also be changes over the life of the engine which it would be nice to know about.

 

I look forwards to hearing more from you on Jabiru aircraft and engine maintenance or inspection.

 

Regards

 

 

[bushpilot]

Guys - 2 months on from the last post here; does anyone have an update on recommendations re 2200s or 3300s? Or simply care to post about their own experiences?

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

I asked the question in the first place to try to find out a realistic budget figure to allow for engine overhall. The quoted now is top at 1000, and full at 2000 hours subject to conditions being satisfied. From the posts here my feeling is you may get to TBO.. if your lucky.. Only Turtle posted an actual real world figure he obtained,(until the engine was overhalled, or in his case replaced) and that was 700 hours and then replaced the engine. DonC got to 760 hours and was fine when the aircraft was sold.

 

I hope to see other posts over time. As it is with a group history that it becomes useful, too few results may not paint a realistic picture.

 

of course with a product that is still being improved, the experiance may improve over time as well.

 

Regards,

 

AusDarren

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Hi

 

I was going to start a new thread but found this old one appropriate.

 

My J160C has just kissed 400 hrs and exhibited an oil weep from apparently the left push rod sleeve in No 3 cylinder. Resultant exploratory surgery revealed corrosion / pitting in the barrel base and it was there rather than the push rod sleeve that the oil was coming from – it’s hard to see there because of the fuel pump mount. Rather than have ¼ as new I decided to do all 4 and discovered No 1 was about ready to join its' diagonal neighbor. Worryingly there appears to be some associated corrosion / pitting on the block junction

 

Now before you start – This certified craft is one owner and has been treated with kids gloves. LAME serviced and maintained, all mods done and runs on Avgas only, never cruised above 2850 rpm. Gets several seconds of mags off engine turn before start etc etc.

 

Some will say all this is irrelevant which was what I was tempted to tell Mr Jabiru interrogator while trying to negotiate a discount between the tears.

 

For those of you that have “old” cheap prices in your head for replacing a 2200 herewith reality

 

Service exchange $11k

 

New $14k

 

4 pots, pistons, pistons ring kits, “O” ring kit, circlips, rubber “T” pieces, exhaust springs $3520 incl GST

 

Being back in the air – priceless

 

 

[glenns]

Interesting comment about not cruising above 2850. At the Narromine forums it was pointed out that cuising below 2950 was harmful to the engine and would make it run to lean! I believe the cruise listed in the manual is 3050 at 75% which is what Jab owners were told to cruise at.

 

I certainly changed my cruise setting for the return flight from Narromine and sat between 2950 and 3000 (I couldnt quite bring myself to push it that bit harder)

 

 

[Guest J430]

who said 2950-3000 ? Thats burning some fuel up!

 

I have a 6 cylinder and I cruise at 2850-2900.

 

I full power it all the way to TOC which is often 5500 - 9500 feet.

 

Not many private engines be it Jab or Lycoming / TCM go all the way to TBO untouched. The engines running all day every day are likely to. Same goes for outboards on water tai's etc.

 

J

 

 

[Yenn]

Bit of a problem for me. If i cruise at 3050 I will exceed Vno.

 

I pull full throttle at take off and maybe in climb, but usually cruise at 2750 or 2800.

 

Of course running slow may make it lean but cylinder head temps are never high. My only fear was that when running in the first 25 hours I needed to get high pressures to help bed in the rings. Runs like a swiss watch at 100 hours.

 

 

[glenns]

I am of course talking about the 2200 engine and not the 3300. Cruise for the 3300 is 2850 I believe and certainly I cruise the J230 at this. As for exceeding VNE that is a bit of a problem but not one that I have in the J160 :big_grin: