Adrian Lewer Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hi All, I have talked about it and now I am going to do it..... Fly into Avalon for the Airshow. I have registered and will be flying in on the 14 (saturday) morning and departing the same night. I have downloaded all of the necessary documents of which i can for now. My Question to all is this, Michael from the Avalon Airshow registrations said as long as i have an Xponder and follow GAAP rules i will be allowed in... This is all good but how do i follow GAAP procedures. I understand That i Must follow the Approach points but and make calls at all of them but will i come up against any other issues ? I am planning Early as i would like all my sorting out done now rather than be a rush job. I will most likely follow the Point cook approach path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hi Adrian, There is a good article in the latest AOPA (Australian Pilot) magazine regarding the procedures, approaches etc. for Avalon (East and Main). Suggest you also get a copy of the AIP SUP for Avalon available here: http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/sup/s9-h01.pdf and have a thorough read and ensure you understand it. I'd also recommend reading the AIP regarding GAAP procedures and if you get the chance, go for a fly into Moorrabbin (or just listen to them on a scanner) to get used to the phraseology. Having flown into Avalon (Main and East) a number of times, the things to focus on are 1) lookout - the number and variety of types makes for some interesting sequencing, 2) know the procedures, 3) radio calls - the radio will be full of activity, know exactly what you need to say, what to respond with and keep all calls as brief as possible. 4) hang after and leave late if you can - there are plenty keen to get out of Avalon East as soon as the show finishes and you can be waiting in line for a while, we usually hung around on Saturday and headed off after 5PM - it'll still be daylight savings. It's a great experience to fly in to such an event and sure beats sitting in the car for hours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yeah I cant wait, the link you gave me explained alot. all the calls Etc will be the same as going into morabbin wont they, start by giving callsign and position Etc and just follow there lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 I can't Wait, I am about to fulfill a life long dream :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Adrian, I'm so envious mate! I want a full write up including photos and anything else you can throw in. One day I'll do it and hopefully be able to do it along with you guys as well! can't wait to hear all about it mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't want to rain on your parade Adrian, however if you're flying in during tower times you won't be legal without a PPL! Unfortunately GAAP entry requires a PPL. I wouldn't try it without. Personally, I have been into Avalon East probably 14-15 times and every time has been interesting and particularly busy and I wouldn't want to do something wrong! If you were heading in there bright and early before the tower opens you'll be ok as there won't be much happening. CASA will be on the ground for most of the day at Avalon East as they are every year and there will be a significant number of charter aircraft coming and going, such as Caravan's and Chieftain's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 When you get there, keep an eye out for one of our Dornier 328's, I'm pretty sure the Essendon base aircraft will be there at some stage or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan_c Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't want to rain on your parade Adrian, however if you're flying in during tower times you won't be legal without a PPL! Unfortunately GAAP entry requires a PPL. I wouldn't try it without.Personally, I have been into Avalon East probably 14-15 times and every time has been interesting and particularly busy and I wouldn't want to do something wrong! If you were heading in there bright and early before the tower opens you'll be ok as there won't be much happening. CASA will be on the ground for most of the day at Avalon East as they are every year and there will be a significant number of charter aircraft coming and going, such as Caravan's and Chieftain's. I was under the impression it was legal for the period of the airshow, as long as you had contacted them and made the arrangements??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I just wrote a big slab on this but then removed it after reading this. Here is the AIP supplement for the Airshow. http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/sup/s9-h01.pdf There are few references to GAAP airspspace which is the critical part. So it looks like RA-Aus is only approved into Avalon EAST with PPL as per 95.55. 6.3 Outside air display times, an Aerodrome Control service will be provided from the existing YMAV Control TWR to facilitate the expected high level of IFR/VFR arrivals and departures. IFR flights will receive a full separation service; VFR flights will operate under GAAP and will be separated from IFR traffic. 15.1.1 LITTLE RIVER MOUTH (LRM) is the designated GAAP approach point for YAVE. MAIN AVALON - is another story. You come and go without a PPL, but at the designated times only and usually not Friday - Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Avalon East will only be GAAP while the tower is active, out of tower hours (before 7AM and after 7PM) I would expect CTAF procedures to apply...although that's not documented in the SUP. Another new one to note for this year is the Point Cook TRA (Temporary Restricted Area) for the duration of the Avalon Airshow, details here http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/sup/s9-h02.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Ah this is doing my head in. l had a look at this document.http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/ra-aus-forum/21605-significant-changes-ultralight-operations-avalon-airshow-2009-a.html Ians post 3rd down. As I read it I am thinking you can fly in Between 0700-1000Hrs which are GAAP Rules ? as long as you have an Xponder ? Any way I will be talking to the big boss tomorrow from Aircraft Operations Avalon and he will say Yae on Nae I have done so much reading over the last few days I know Avalon back to front and will have no problems flying in (i think). Alternatively I can just go get my bloody PPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Hi Adrian and others, I just contacted Michael Jennings that you spoke to (coincidentally). He informed me that he has registered you to fly into Avalon EAST for Saturday, as there are no day visitors permitted at Avalon main unless you are over 3,000kg’s. I asked him about flying into GAAP with RA-Aus registration and he told me that this is his first Airshow and he did not know that RA-Aus pilots without PPL are not permitted into GAAP. He was of the belief that they had obtained a blanket exemption for all RA-Aus aircraft to fly into Avalon, but didn’t know if that extended to Avalon East – we concluded that it probably doesn’t, as it’s not mentioned anywhere in any documentation as far as we could read. He asked for someone with some knowledge on RA-Aus ops to call the Manager of Aircraft Flying Operations tomorrow to sort this out and then post onto the forum. I’ve scheduled a time to speak with him tomorrow about it. When I get a definite answer I’ll post back here. In the mean time, don't try and fly into Avalon main by mistake! If you are bright and early on Saturday for Avalon East I can't see you having any problems as per your plans that you told me earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Any way I will be talking to the big boss tomorrow from Aircraft Operations Avalon and he will say Yae on NaeI have done so much reading over the last few days I know Avalon back to front and will have no problems flying in (i think). Alternatively I can just go get my bloody PPL. Please give us an update after you speak with them as I am interested to sneak in, too, before the Tower opens and was about to start calling them to liaise on what is needed .... but it sounds a little like the powers that be really don't want to facilitate us this time, although my reading is that they will work with you IF you put your aircraft on display for the entire week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Now I am realy confused ? I was going to fly into Avalon East Approach from LRM ? at around 8-9 am ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Yep Captain Wilco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JRMobile Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Adrian, I'm as confused as you. This is from the airshow WWW: " CAO 95.55 Recreational Aircraft may, subject to CAO 95.55 operate in controlled airspace, but only under specific conditions. Subject to final confirmation (expected late 2008), CASA has advised that approval may be given to permit ultralight flight in to Avalon controlled airspace for the purpose of Airshow 2009, provided certain conditions are met including: Specific procedures are developed to process ultralight movements; Ultralight movements are limited to specific times on nominated days, with arrivals early morning and departures late afternoon to avoid periods of peak traffic Requests for Recreational Aircraft pilots to be granted permission to operate are to be lodged with the Airshow organizers no later than 10 February 2009 The Airshow organizers will provide a consolidated list of all intending ultralight operations to CASA to obtain a “General Approval†for participants. Pilot and aircraft information required by CASA to consider an approval includes the following (which is to be provided separately to the Airshow organizers when requested to do so): Pilots name Details of licenses held Aircraft type and registration markings Aircraft equipment fit – radio/transponder Intended arrival and departure dates and times Confirmation of requirements following final approval by CASA will be advised as soon as possible – through update of this segment." From this I take it we will not know until after Feb 10th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 As far as I can see now it stands like this. Ultralight Movements are from 1900-0700 so you have a daylight gap of maybe 1 or so hours in the morning to get in and 1 or so hours at night to get out. Ultralights are Encouraged to use YMAV Main outside tower hours which are 0700-1900. operate in accordance of Para 15 and 16 Avalon East VFR arrival and departure procedures. obtain current ATIS (WTF I know what it is but can someone explain it) do i have to tell them i have listened to the current going ons at YMAV or YMAE and tell them i have received Charlie or what ever it is at the time ? SO ARE WE USING MAIN OR EAST........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Hi Jr Mobile, What this means is that if an ultralight wants to fly in wether GA or Raa pilot the A/C must have an Xponder regardless if its a drifter with a GA/Raa pilot before TWR hours or a Caravan with GA/Raa Pilot inside TWR hours thats the bit i understand the rest is garbage... My old instructor told me going here would be a headache, He also said don't ding the plane (i am taking his ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 IF you are putting your aircraft on display for the week, they want you to fly into Main, based on the way I read what they mailed to me ... but I am as confused as you blokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Hi all got the XXXXs and am on the phone to CASA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 JRMobile, your question is covered by my post above (which I edited). The whole problem is that it looks like the excemption is only for Avalon Main for the purposes of getting RAA aircraft in there for display purposes. Avalon East is just a temporary airfield that they throw a tower at for the event and they didn't think to include that in the exemption (or so it would seem as there are no organised time slots for east by the look of it). Avalon East will be hosting extreme amounts of traffic from around 8am-10am and 4pm-6pm or thereabouts. Not sure what time the tower opens. We had aircraft trying to fly in there last year at 7am or earlier but it was closed because it rained all night the night before. When it opened after 10am all hell broke loose. The ATIS is another complexity - it is broadcast on a frequency that RA-Aus aircraft generally don't receive unless you have an ADF ! All will be revealed tomorrow, or if you are talking with CASA you need to find out what the exemption extends to. Captain, easy solution for you, is to come to Tooradin and come with me ;) or I can just fly you in there in your aircraft and you can pay my entry fee - everyone's a winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Hi Brent, I think Avalon East is for Rec aircraft but also read main is ? I Have read all the info and it says east for U/L opps. but read that main is for U/L as well..... what a headache they should use plain english..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hi All, Hold onto your hats..... He Graham Tabinar) has told me he is 100% sure on this but asked me to contact Mick Poole from Raa just to confirm but here it is..... I have Spoken to Graham Tabinar from CASA and explained the situation fully. His response was as follows. Ultralight Raa Aircraft can fly into Avalon East only. The only Exemption is for people who are putting there aircraft on display for the whole airshow, they will be allowed to fly in on Avalon Main on the appropriate day/time but like the hotel California once you are in you can not leave untill the end of the airshow, not the end of the day........ the whole airshow. People wishing to Fly in on a day trip on Raa can do so by flying into Avalon East YMAE. yo must comply with the following. We are not Required to have Xponder but if you do please ALT at 1000 MUST have Radio Fitted and use GAAP Radio Procedures. (after all this i know avalon like the back of my hand now) Aircraft who can comply with the 90Kts cruise in the holding CCT or within the Avalon area have right of way over slower A/C, slower A/C will Experience delays. All A/C who will be Crising at the 90 Kts are to do so at 1000FT this includes slower A/C Follow Inbound procedures for GAAP from LRM (little river mouth) ONLY. do not confuse little river mouth with the werribee river mouth. Follow all rules stipulated in the Air Sup for the airshow under Para 11,15 and 16. I would advise carrying all your doc's with you and become familiar with Avalon East. Because we are day visitors we have to pay entry :black_eye: I would also like to add the following, some GA pilots who hate Raa will be looking for a chance to Crucify us at any given oppertunity. so if you fly in Make it look sharper that the big ugly 172 beside you. I would also like to say.... I will have a spare seat if anyone wants the chance to come along, its ok I know where Avalon is so i wount get lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I received a call from Mike Dance from Aishows Downunder. He gave me a similar story. After a lengthy discussion we agreed that the compilation and wording of the AIP supplement is a little ambiguous. The Avalon East field is a GAAP "like" airfield and not officially GAAP as such, as it would be at Moorabbin. Therefore RA-Aus aircraft are entitled to enter Avalon East as they please. He did say a transponder and radio was required, even though I thought AVE don't have radar and based on what Adrian has said this is correct in that you won't need one. We also discussed that that the 90 knot minimum speed is to keep out trikes and the like from Avalon East and this appears to be the intention of the minimum speed. As Adrian has said, doing the right thing and following instructions is of paramount importance as if someone stuffs up they will have review the situation for the next show. Sooooo...... come one come all! As long as you can do 90 knots! Sorry for any confusion caused, however Mike agreed that the document could have better conveyed the information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Oh baby only 40 Odd more sleeps, Is it ok to reveal I am bloody Excited..... Cant wait to say "Avalon East Jabiru 4781 reporting Little River Mouth 1000FT". Oh yeah baby.... come on in.... Ok I have regained my composure..... Good to hear Mike has the same story as Graham, If we make our entry and exits more cleanly than the GA boys we will be welcome again i dare say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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