facthunter Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Well.? I specifically use the example of taking pax with you, and should you take them in a situation that you are not trained for? Nobody is disputing the legality of it as it is currently spelled out, but I certainly would not like to see it encouraged and become a common practice. To me, the action at that point is not supported by the training. and if much of it is done then it is a loophole rather than the right thing to do. The actual X/c exercises that I have done are pretty intensive learning experiences for the pupil, not just a formality by any means, and if money wasn't a consideration I am sure many pupils would want to do more. Of course I am not suggesting that you don't leave the circuit to do the sort of things that you do ( and should do, and keep doing). that is what the training area is for. We would all go nuts if all we did was come out and do circuits. I think if I keep commenting on this topic I will only be repeating myself. I would like to think that reasonable consideration be given to the points that I make. Some pilots do put off the Nav and Met studies. Perhaps if they were made a bit more interesting, they might be taken up earlier. I know that it is a fair amount of money to find in one lump as well and the time in the air could in some circumstances be reduced and more concentrated tasks be introduced. Ie more outlandings at unfamiliar airports/ suitable fields. Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I specifically use the example of taking pax with you, and should you take them in a situation that you are not trained for? Nobody is disputing the legality of it as it is currently spelled out, but I certainly would not like to see it encouraged and become a common practice. To me, the action at that point is not supported by the training. and if much of it is done then it is a loophole rather than the right thing to do. The actual X/c exercises that I have done are pretty intensive learning experiences for the pupil, not just a formality by any means, and if money wasn't a consideration I am sure many pupils would want to do more. Of course I am not suggesting that you don't leave the circuit to do the sort of things that you do ( and should do, and keep doing). that is what the training area is for. We would all go nuts if all we did was come out and do circuits. I think if I keep commenting on this topic I will only be repeating myself. I would like to think that reasonable consideration be given to the points that I make. Some pilots do put off the Nav and Met studies. Perhaps if they were made a bit more interesting, they might be taken up earlier. I know that it is a fair amount of money to find in one lump as well and the time in the air could in some circumstances be reduced and more concentrated tasks be introduced. Ie more outlandings at unfamiliar airports/ suitable fields. Nev. So even though I've completed my certificate and my Pax endorsement meaning that I have the minimum requirments to conduct this type of flight, are you saying I still shouldn't? Jump onto Google maps and see the distance and the type of flight between Bunbury and Busselton. Now if the minimum requirements aren't good enough to conduct this kind of flight, then what is?? So at what stage AFTER the minimum requirements set by RAAus can I conduct this kind of flight Nev? Can you see what I'm getting at? There is a minimum standard, I've gone beyond that minimum standard and currently over half way through my Nav endorsement, so why shouldn't I conduct this flight after going beyond the minimum standards set by RAAus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Your covered Brett, you have your pilot cert and PAX so providing AC is ok to use you are all legal, if you are confident with it, there are no regs broken.. stay safe enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relfy Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 As Watto said Brett, you have your cert and you've trained to that standard and are able to fly and land at other airstrips within your legally mandated (ops manual) radius. Have a great flight! :thumb_up: You also have more XC country hrs than the previous standard for ataining that cert also, as many members here attained the same qual under. Even in my basic training I was doing touch and goes at all the surrounding airstrips to my home strip with engine failures, cross wind landings etc thrown in. It was invaluable training and set me up for ops outside of my home base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mike_perth Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 To be fair to Brett I may have muddled the lines here slightly as he and I are mates outside of this forum and I come from the magical land of GA:kboom:and as such have explained him the legalities of this flight form my perspective and after reading the recaa rules then I cannot see any reaons as to why he couldnt make this flight not one! - Im no lawyer but from a laymens point of view nothing about this flight seems to be a problem. Maybe we need to encourage a RAA board or legal member to join this forum and be able to offer their "legal" opinion on such matters so that confusion and hearsay (spelling?) are avoided and as such we act on proper advice! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Mike, you don't need to be a lawyer - we are talking about airmanship here - the ability to make a decision not to do something you haven't been trained for - that would appear to me to be a no brainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 This is amazing, something as simple as this and no one can work out the exact ruling. The way these regs are written, and this is just an example, leaves the regs open to many interpretations. just who is responsible for writing this mumbo jumbo? I doubt very much that an official of the RAAus will pop up here and give us their 'expert' interpretation of any Reg due to the liability issues (not to mention the ridecule from their fellow board members) if they get it wrong or even if they are right that their interpretation differs from that of the lawers or of the magistrates view. i suggest you formally ask the RAAus for their interpretation and get it in writing. if you get it wrong it can cost you big time in fines and loss of privilages not to mention time in the lock up. ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Even in my basic training I was doing touch and goes at all the surrounding airstrips to my home strip with engine failures, cross wind landings etc thrown in. It was invaluable training and set me up for ops outside of my home base. Yep, 60% of all my first landings where on all different strips around the place.... (it's great living in the country!) we just picked the one with the least cross wind at first, and worked our way up... So landing on goat tracks to 20mt wide tarmac runways are all part of the daily course! Go for it Brett! if your confident about it, there's nothing stopping you, except if the weather turns sour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Ah yes, the weather - an unexpected diversion to the planned alternate..... One thing about this thread is that the TV News is going to be very interesting if the SAR crew has to go looking for the SAR guy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastmeg2 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I think it's a good idea for pilots to gain experience at different airstrips to build on their skills. One interesting thing I've noted is that my "seat of the pants" perception of altitude varies with the width of the (sealed) runway and in particular have to pay more attention to the ALT at wider sealed runways otherwise I'll be too high on final and may start flaring too high if I'm not consciously compensating for the visual effect of the wider runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Ah yes, the weather - an unexpected diversion to the planned alternate.....One thing about this thread is that the TV News is going to be very interesting if the SAR crew has to go looking for the SAR guy.. Hey ease up Turbo, I think I've got enough common dog to be able to check the wether on Monday morning and make the decision whether to fly or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I'll let you into a little secret, at one stage of our flying, pretty much everyone thought they could predict the weather, that is until they got THE FRIGHT.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I'll let you into a little secret, at one stage of our flying, pretty much everyone thought they could predict the weather, that is until they got THE FRIGHT.... And that's why I'll get the forecast before heading to Bunbury to decide if it's suitable to fly or not. There's no "predicting" in that what so ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I think we are begining to get the picture, so let's leave you out of it and pick a hypothetical Pilot, newly certified, but who has had no navigation training and no cross country training, and who, as likely as not will be finding Performance and Operations, fuel planning, true north vs magnetic, and daylight planning all new and exciting, or perhaps hasn't done that yet. He's criss crossed the training area so many times that he knows certain strainer posts and familiar trees. On this occasion he's decided to exercise his right to fly within the 25 Nm limit albeit with no navigation experience, and he's going to predict the weather by getting a weather report before he leaves town. The weather prediction is for some showers and drizzle - nothing he hasn't experienced before, and he's flying coastal anyway and there's also a coastal creek behind the primary dunes as well as the highway, so off he goes. It's an hour's drive to the remote airport, and the preflight phase to departure takes another 30 minutes. He's driven through a couple of light showers, and there was a bit of drizzle at the airport so he's pretty comfortable with the weather, particularly since a pilot who'd just landed tells him it was ok, "just a bit of drizzle about". As he lifts off he notices the drizzle coming in off the sea is a bit more prominent, but they did say "some" showers. Just as he's settled in and about twenty minutes out, (110 minutes after he got the forecast, which may have been produced an hour before that), he realises the drizzle is a solid wall down to the ground and it's coming across the coast fast. (He was NOT able to predict this, and that's my point). He realises that before he gets to Busselton he's going to be flying blind in the drizzle, so he turns and heads east and as he does so the aircraft begins to feel the approach of the rain and starts to bounce. At this stage of his flying he may not have even brought along a map because he knows the way to Busselton, but this pilot has thought to bring a WAC Chart, and he now takes it out to use in earnest for the very first time. He seems to remember passing Capel a little while back, but understandably he hasn't been timing his flight, and when he looks down he sees a sea of dark green scrub. It's now time for formal navigation procedures, surface to map identification, amendemt to SARWATCH etc and heading towards the planned alternate quickly before the storm overtakes him, checking his fuel burn to date to get his endurance in case he can't get in to the alternate.....little things like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 That's a fair enough scenario but being that it be a hypothetical pilot, if the school allows that pilot to hire the aircraft, where does their responsibility come into it in conditions like that? But this isn't about a hypothetical pilot, it's about me as I'm the one asking the question and I got the answer I required but when comments like "One thing about this thread is that the TV News is going to be very interesting if the SAR crew has to go looking for the SAR guy.." come up having a dig at me, then I'll get my back up and defend myself. I understand that you're trying to get a point across Turbo, but what's the real meaning behind what you're trying to say? Are you trying to tell me that I shouldn't be doing this flight or that the RAAus minimum requirements are still not enough? Just answer that for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 What I'm saying to you, assuming you haven't started any nav training, is that this is an operation you really want to do, but haven't yet been trained for. After Googling the route - sure, in normal weather with a coast to watch there would be no navigation issues. But you quickly learn once you start navigating that it can be a whole new learning curve, so I'd echo the thoughts of an earlier poster, and say do this when you've completed your Nav training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 What I'm saying to you, assuming you haven't started any nav training, is that this is an operation you really want to do, but haven't yet been trained for. After Googling the route - sure, in normal weather with a coast to watch there would be no navigation issues. But you quickly learn once you start navigating that it can be a whole new learning curve, so I'd echo the thoughts of an earlier poster, and say do this when you've completed your Nav training As I've said before, I have started my navs and I've had enough nav training through work as well as with my flight training to feel more than confident in doing this flight. So it's safe to say that your answer is, after saying that I shouldn't do this flight until after I've done my nav training, is that the RAAus minimum requirements and 25nm boundary is giving certified pilots to much freedom. I'm not having a dig, you're actually bringing up a really good point here because I'd like to know who else feels the same way about it. It's a good point Turbo, think I might start a poll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 There is a problem with the training if it has been done entirely in a 'training area' - but that area is in the opposite direction to the location which a pilot wishes to visit after gaining their PC. In the case of Albany, the official GA and RAA training area is all E and NE of here - to keep traffic out of the 14 ILS zone. It extends 35 nm to the NE, and students get to fly there on area solo - no problems with that, and there are no 'allowed' strips in the area. However, on gaining their PC, can they fly W of Albany to Denmark, and land there?Never been there before, and it's a narrower strip, usually out of wind too. Yes, it's even in the same CTAF® - so don't even have to change frequencies. Denmark so happens to suffer from somewhat worse wx than Albany. Would the flying school here rent you an aircraft if it knew you were going to do that?.................. NO WAY JOSE' ! If you asked to be checked into Denmark so you could do this later.....we'd consider that to be a honest approach and would probably do it. If you owned your own aircraft, or used your mates' aircraft.........it's your problem, not ours! I'd probably look at it more pragmatically if we were inland with lots of open ground, it was a fine weather location, and the training up to PC included experience with the (<25nm) location you wanted to visit. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Brett, Poll?Not again! I don't think it's World War Three - just that this thread has uncovered an oversight in the regulations. I'm pretty sure in GA it was just - Training area, then when Navigation Qualifications were passed, Australia. To me the fix is either fit the Training area to the 25Nm and have the instructors familiarise that area, or settle on the Training Area Boundaries - the real issue was as per the scenario - the pilot getting lost because he doesn't have nav skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Turbo, it does not state training area once you have your pilot cert, it is a 25nm radius!!!!!!!!!!!! of you home strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Brett, Poll?Not again! I don't think it's World War Three - just that this thread has uncovered an oversight in the regulations. I'm pretty sure in GA it was just - Training area, then when Navigation Qualifications were passed, Australia. To me the fix is either fit the Training area to the 25Nm and have the instructors familiarise that area, or settle on the Training Area Boundaries - the real issue was as per the scenario - the pilot getting lost because he doesn't have nav skills. Hang on, I thought this was about me not predicting the weather and being struck into an unfamiliar situation AND getting lost. In your personal opinion Turbo, what do you think the minimum should be after a pilot has recently qualified? How far should he / she be able to fly after qualification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Turbo, because the regs do not interpret how you wish them to does not make it an oversight or a loophole! it simply means that your opinion does not match what is actually stated in black and white. The abilities gained leading up to obtaining a pilot cert would have been taken into consideration when this distance of 25nm was specified during the writing of the manuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Watto, Brett - the area in question is from the boundary of the Training Area, where the Pilot is very familiar to his surroundings to the boundary of the "new" area (25Nm) where he is not familiar with the surroundings, and so needs to navigate as he would in cross country flying. Picking an exact amount of distance doesn't really matter - its the uncharted territory - it's possibly to get lost in a very short time if you don't know the landmarks, and there are other issues - Poteroo's example is a good one. Having thought this over, the issue should be fixed by limiting pilots to the Training Area, but setting a suitable Training Area size. That way this thread would never have come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Yes he needs to navigate and that skill should be apparent over that distance from prior training, the question was is it legal! the answer is YES!!!!!!! Lets make it hypothetical, there is this guy who is argueing a point and is clearly wrong! does he a) admit the answer is yes its legal b) continue to flog a dead horse my money is on (b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Watto, there's absolutely no question that it's legal, and navigation/cross country training usually comes after Pilot Certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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