RFguy

depends how many you have in it. I'm looking at ARcher1 / challenger, but also 140s which are fine for two place airplanes.. not looking for a short field plane... I'll get a savannah / Cygnet / for that. A 19- build anyway....

agreed. I am going to buy a Piper, selling the Jab. many reasons . Piper sucks fuel of course . I was reading up on the Piper MOGAS STC. which seems good for the 7:1 compression engines.

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/ct86-21.pdf takeaways if you dont get time to read the 59 pages comparing central US winter PULP and AVGAS 100LL, and then spend time examining Australian fuel data sheets --- My takeaway- use AVGAS 100LL in summer over PULP if tank temps are over 30 deg C and below 45C. add some Decalin Runup additive if you dont want lead buildup in low temperature (Jabiru, Rotax) engines. 0) Vapour lock and detonation was not detected using AVGAS 100LL. 0b) Winter PULP with higher vapour pressure is a significant issue for vapour lock, especially if it is purchased in winter and used in summer..... and due to altitude effects, may be problematic without fuel lines under pressure. 1) vapour lock in the fuel lines generally shows up as cyclic fuel pressure indication over the course of 20 sec to 120 secs as fuel percolates in the lines and is removed. 2) vapour lock is most likely just below and at the minimum boiling point of the fuel. High fuel tank temperatures 10deg C above the boiling point are less trouble that just below because the volatile compunds have been evaporated off and the vapour pressure drops (desirable) . 3) operation of fuels around their boiling point is unwanted. Airplane with PULP sitting out in the hot sun all day = bad. Probably worst case scenario fpr PULP since high Australian ambient temps are similar to the boiling point. 4) vented storage 'stale' PULP reduced tendency to vapour lock, even though the RVP wasnt substantially affected. Octane increased slightly with vented / stale PULP. 5) changing throttle settings when vapour lock is encountered doesnt help much- the problem is a fuel delivery issue. 6) For PULP, Detonation is more severe with low humidity and high engine temps. FYI - recommended max RVP for aircraft (source : aircraft mfr : 49 kPa) AVGAS 100LL : (Australia) RVP 45kPa (39-49 max range) , 10% distilled at 75 deg C, IBP(initial boiling point) : >42C. PULP98 : large range RVP 45 -100 kPa (typical : 60-80 depends summer/winter) , Typical Australian fuel : 10 % distilled at 49 deg C. IBP ~ 32 deg C

Jack, I disgree. IMO Jabiru bottom ends 'never' (IE rarely) need work- only for prop strike ..... Barrels and heads always come off....with ring replacement pretty much mandatory (IE it will need to be done) . heads needs to be cleaned up, guides and valves inspected and cleaned, recession assessed, hone and back on they go.

Section 2.7, 2.8 and 2.9 and Section 3.3 IMPLY that the engine whatever the situation, will be stripped down and clearances and tolerances measured. That's what Jabiru do if you send it to them . They will split the case and measure everything. Now, if the pistons etc are off, and it is found that there is no undue play, friction etc and no serious metal in the filter, then it's likely to be not required to split the case- but Jabiru would.

Jabiru are not upgrading/refurbing Gen1 engines- they are doing Gen2, Gen3 ( A Gen2 is not a long way from the Gen 3). (when I asked 3 months ago) . Gen4 production rate should be improved by mid year. Jabiru top end should go 1000 hours IMO on ULP fuel only, if head recession doesnt get you causing valves to not fully close. Nev you are right- case split is NOT mandated, but parts like replacement like valves at 1k hours must Jetboy. true. bit of interpretation of the manuals. Jabiru talk of engine cycles- 1000hours each cycle, max of two cycles if it is a 24- HAVING SAID ALL THAT- with pistons off and crank and cam feeling good and no unexpected metal in the filter - In My opinion,. it is likely unnecessary to split the case from my POV and the way I interpret the manual. ----- Engines sent to Jabiru - Jabiru though would likely split the case at 1k hours. Section 2.7, 2.8 particularly : "The intention is that an engine will initially be stripped and the mandatory replacement parts will be discarded" Interpret this how you will...

Thruster is right about the mandatory updates applied when Jabiru do an overhaul. (which is good) - In this Gen3 engine I recently bought, it was overhauled in 2015 by Jabiru and they upgraded the engine to the very latest feature and SB spec. - solid lifters to Hydraulic rollers, new camshaft, new pushrod manifolds, internal pushrod oiling, full flywheel attachment kit, dowels in the crankcase >> prop flange interface... new oil pump rotor, double valve springs, etc etc All that would have been in the end , quite a bit of coin --- IE the basic overhaul of pistons, valves, gaskets, rings, rockerbushes would have been peanuts. .... Hence maybe wait until a Gen4 engine is available (get in the queue) and run 'on condition' (which you are not permitted to do ) if leakdowns are good (>65 to 70) . I would think at 960 hours it would be tired. But the bottom end as nev says is likely fine. they rarely (I dont know of any) that give problems ever.

I would add my 2c in that the 1000 hour is a crankcase split is alot more involved that just pulling the heads off and cleaning up heads, guides, pistons which 'any mug can do '. IMO the level of experience and competence is an order of magnitude for a full overhaul compared to the top end overhaul or refresh. Saying all that, people dont seem to report too much difficulty with reassembling the crankcase and not having a crankshaft and camshaft (which runs in the aluminium casing ) bind. Jabiru's price for doing a overhaul I think is reasonable. Parts are not priced like Rotax- Rotax wants you to buy a new engine and that's why a ring set is $270 for a single piston for a rotax and $35 for a jabiru. Although rotax will go reliably 2000 hours without blinking ..but then u have to chuck it out. So- you might consider taking it to your favourite mechanic, removing the engine and sending to Jabiru. Or flying it to Bundaberg is I think much easier unless you are in WA.... -glen

Keith, just a comment clarification - did you say Jabiru are not overhauling < Gen4 ? (IE 1,2 or 3) ?

just a point of order here you must price in the ladder to be apples for apples How do the fill -underside setups work for a 737 ?

and spiral pin retainers...

My bet Turbs that the melting the piston crown you were looking for more than 36 hp/litre........

150C was used in the oven looking at expansion from 25C >> 150C. Temps can get up to 350C in the crown, 250C in the skirt with sustained high output (IE heat soak) - in engines maintaining stoich mixture . . there is a huge difference as you know between short powers bursts and sustained high output. The models are very good now., and sophisticated. Lower specific output (kW/litre) helps alot here...

I'll need to consider a test program, also. fortunately, with LCH, I can run at WOT indefinetly on the ground... but that's not really the problem- its the cyclic nature of the flying of course, not just sustained WOT. Some spring clamp thermocouples on the bores will be interesting . I do beleive that there is significant room for problems between the bore and the piston half way down... With the likely 60 deg C difference in cylinder temps between a water jacket and the cro-mo air cooled bores, the piston will get much hotter , and despite the bores having a 0.15mm head start (std setup) the pistons with their 1.4x higher expansion coefficient(of cromo) will zoom past the bores when things get hot. I think the commodores get away with the very small clearances because they never really get very (very) hot. With the air cooled bores, while they can get hot(ter) and expand, there is significant extra heat in the higher expansion body (piston) to cause trouble. IE you add another 50 deg C to the pistons and bores and now that 1.4x expansion difference of the piston is a real problem. So the bore temperatures are what needs to be monitored to understand where the clearance might be at . I've been reading up on research journal papers on piston temperature modelling, measurement etc.

SPS have come back and said yeah on putting the grooves in no worries.. DO I read it correct that Jabiru went to circlips (weegan) because people couldnt seem to fit their wire clips reliably ? Car racing community seems big on wire clips. Best thing to do now is to buy a set of pistons. I will be interested to know how they measure up. They're obviously fine in a water cooled untapered bore of 97.52mm. Jabiru bore at 150C (125C rise) in the middle (half way down) on top (measured) will go to 97.77mm (from 97.6) . Jab pistons at 97.45mm and 200C rise on the pin boss region would go to 97.82,.(based on last round of measurements) .... I will do another round of thermal expansion measurements in the oven at 150C now I have my fancy external micrometers. Blast air cooling over the top of the jabiru bores, with no air underneath would certainly distort the shape. Danger occurs at top of WOT climb, nose over- airflow improves, speed goes up 25% = 56% more cooling available = Sudden bore cooling. OR backoff from WOT and full rich = cool to cruise throttle and much leaner off the main jet - now gets hot.........AND / OR backoff then skirt much hotter than crown now briefly and crack.. Or go around from glide approach with cool bores and suddenly hot pistons . but it is full rich so fairly cool. lots of guesses there.

Now the thing with this rebuild that was different to the last : The previous wrist pins I could push them out of the pistons with my strong thumbs during diassembly. This rebuild I had to press out the pins from the pistons. IE felt interference fit in the piston. FWIW : this new rebuild had been sitting around and not run for 18 months.

Actually, I note the term for these gapped crown-skirt pistons is better referred as a "thermally blocked skirt" .

Before I knew even a little bit about pistons I used to think the crown got the heat out by oil film between the crown region (top to oil ring) and the bore walls. But it is clear to me now , at least with these split skirt gap pistons in a non-taper bore , that the crown region even at max temp never approaches the cylinder diameter .. it's the region below the oil ring that runs in the oil film and the walls . and the oil rings themselves conduct heat. . The piston pin has bugger all thermal conductivity so not much goes down there. So from that point of view, one way to look at it is that the big slot with the skirted piston is a lost opportunity to remove heat (putting aside there are different cold ovality shapes for different designs) , compared to a solid skirt piston. Sure then the skirt doesnt get as much heat and doesnt change dimension much so probably should head a quiet life (maintain reasonably tight clearances) in driving down to the shops to get some groceries lifestyle. ?

FWIW In the previous engine I rebuilt- the circlip grooves were 'all over the place' - looked (under microscope) like inaccurate machining rather than wear. the groove wasnt centred on the rot axis. I'll measure these pins to see if there is any taper on the originals. Is there by design more clearance between pin and conrod, or pin and piston ?

Talked to Jabiru this morning, as usual spares and engines very helpful. No, the Gen3 spare pistons are the same split skirt, its the Gen4 that has the new non split skirt pistons. The Gen3 engine manual refers to the 'new' non split skirt pistons but that's not the current supply. confusing . I can understand the manufacturer sticking with something that works a fair percentage of the time without trouble. So, Mahle or "other" it is....

Cosmic, Gather with 2.3mm head shim you milled out the head recession IE replaced material with shim ? I calculated 8.64 : 1 compression with no shim. (IE up from ~ 8). ....need ~0.85mm shim to bring it back to stock. (at least from the Jab pistons that I have) I'd be quite happy with 8.6 compression with my liquid cooled heads. Dunno about valve clearance though. assemble and check.

Turbs, how does the 2nd ring get 'pressurized' ? I'm seeing how rings really have to match well to land depth, height , bore size etc, given the ring land height is critical enough (to getting pressure built up behind the ring via the gap), how the hell does the 2ND ring do anything ? (IE if the first ring is doing its job how does the 2nd ring get any pressure behind it ) ? Does ring gap width influence the time to pressurize the ring ? IE infintesimally narrow and you cant get the gas in there fast enough ? What does the ring do about the time the exhuast valve closes ? just push out on spring only ? does the top ring get sucked in on intake suction stroke at high vaccum ?

Hi Nev , yes, I am already in conversation with SPS, thanks for the confirmation they're on your list, also.

I have posted already- the parts are the homoglated holden saloon racing pistons They're specific to Precision Intl, and AFAIKT , the only suitable candidates. MAHLE MOTORSPORTSSKU: PHO38006040MMS is the part number at Precision Intl, and there is a ringset for it on the site. Yes Jabiru have a new HD piston for Gen3 , but I cannot seem to get any info from them . maybe busy with the new year. I wil call them tomorrow see what they say, I know they're $200 a pop I did post pictures of the ACTUAL MAHLE PISTON in question https://www.recreationalflying.com/topic/38710-2nd-piston-ring-always-stuck-whats-the-story/?do=findComment&comment=540314&_rid=11148

Golly what has been going on while I have been underground all day. Dmech, if you are going to tout , on the Jab-Camit forum, just how great these pistons are in an experimental Jabiru and only offer or disclose an extra 20% of the information that is required to really make the conversion work , only providing tid bits of information, then people will be left to figure out the rest by themselves, which is what I am doing. Left to understand and figure out my myself : a) exactly what bore taper / shape you ended up with and b) why you decided to use your own rings instead of the piston suggested rings (and I have determined there is more clearance in the jabiru bore than the Holden bore) . Dmech is would be a asset and opportunity for the Jab community to know exactly what some of those missing pieces of the jigsaw are. You wont even give them to me in private, (since you do not want to modify any one's engine parts it would seem) , hence I am now full broadcast getting enough knowledge to figure it out for myself. I am thankful dmech for the information you provided, But of course, its not the whole story. ANyway, I will leave it at that ...