Phil Perry

Hi Phil,per this site,

 

- Aircraft Incidents and Accidents

 

- Old Bar Ferris Wheel Incident

 

Oct 1, 2011

 

Cheers,

 

Eric

Thank You Eric. . . . . .

 

cheers, Phil P.

 

 

I'm surprised you hadn't heard the tale of the ferris wheel yet. It's a good one!

Any links available David ?

 

Phil.

 

 

For those who do not have an Ops Manual, here (in part) is what it says about accident and incident reporting.

Thanks DWF, not so different from the UK then.

 

Phil

this is one of the Opticas now based at YSBK

Thanks for that DJP, and thanks for the VID Ultralights . . . . . the engine sounds like a bagful of old spanners, but I guess that's down to the dynamic range of the mic on the videocam. . . . . .

 

 

It doesnt sound like a aero engine sounds more like a modified car engine

I wonder if the duct creates a lesser ground noise footprint though, for the benefit of all those strange people who buy a house next to an airfield /airport and then complain about noisy aeroplanes. . . . . . .

 

 

Phil....the same is the case in NZ Where the Transport Accident Investigation Commission (TAIC) investigate as per your CAA. By publishing accident causes, it is hoped lessons will be learned and accidents reduced hence cost affective.

That would be the logical conclusion I would have thought, obviously, in some places the politicians are not convinced . . . . . .? Anyway, the politics are possibly very complex and wrong thread for can of worm opening.

 

 

Phil,In GA, ATSB investigates accidents, but in recent years has tapered down due to cost and now quite often decides not to investigate. For example there have been several aerobatic fatals involving pilots of the highest standard, where ATSB have said they will not investigate.

 

In RA, incidents are reported to RAA, and fatal crashes are investigated by State and Territory Police who prepare reports geared for the State Coroner and do not release them to the public. At times they call on RAA for some technical advice, but RAA have no control. Infrequently, such as the case of the notorious Ferris Wheel crash, ATSB may decide to investigate an RA crash.

Thanks Nev & Turbo for that. In the seventies, there was a publication called the Aviation Safety Digest, or "Crash Comic" as it was affectionately known, . . . . which used to report on thisgs as (arguably) minor as "The nosewheel of the C-172 aircraft finally failed after the pilot had struck the fourth sheep during the landing run. . . ." complete with site measurements and photographs in a glossy mag. . . it's surprising to learn that nowadays some accidents attract no investigation at all, seems like a bit of a backward step that, but perhaps the funding isn't available ?

 

( I didn't realise the "Ferris Wheel" comment was describing a real event by the way, read it as just a a generic example. )

 

I'll look for old posts about that on the "Accidents & Incidents" thread as its going a bit off topic here.

 

Thanks Guys.

 

 

Unless they hit a ferris wheel, or the ATSB have specifcally said they want to investigate, this may never see the light of day. It's only very rarely that ATSB investigate RA accidents,

AAAHHHH. . . . . a part - answer to an earlier post of mine regarding accident reports. . . . . . looks like I'll just have to keep reading for a couple of years, and then I might get a handle on it. . . . .

 

Just repeating briefly the situation in the UK :

 

If you bend it, CAA/ AAIB will investigate it. If you bend it and HURT yourself / others, They will investigate it a lot quicker. . . . . If you bend it and kill yourself / others,. . . they will investigate it Immediately, or sooner, whichever is quicker. Regrettably, due to the machinations of a government Quango,. . . it will usually be two years before the final exhaustive report is published BUT it is usually EXTREMELY accurate and detailed.

 

Phil

 

 

Plenty of good oil on 'ere if your Instructor gets too boring ( ! ) just remember to swallow several sips of salt with it. . . . . . !

 

Welcome John.

 

 

Hiya Marc,

 

I agree emphatically with Mr. Tornado, the weather MUST be good for it. . . . My Mate Ivan has just facebooked me to let me know he's staying on the GOld Coast for an EXTRA two weeks. . . ! He's conned Emirates into switching his flight for a later one the lucky sod. . . . .

 

Welcome and I'm also envious about the lightwing too, have not flown one, but would very much like to, providing they make an industrial size variant for the . . . . Larger Pilot.

 

Let us know how you get on with training mate.

 

Phil

 

 

ANYWAY ( just in case Ian is watching. . . . ) I'm really glad that those two left the BLUE FOXBAT with no serious injuries, and will be waiting to hear ( Read ? ) what actually happened. Noone has yet responded to my question about accident reporting procedures for non- GA types in OZ,. . . . . have I REALLY got to wade thru loads of government stuff to get the answer to this rather simple ( ? ) question. . . . I only asked out of interest in what differences there may be between us and you blokes ( and blokettes ) In the land of plentyofvegemite. . . . .

 

 

If you put it down quite well on that sort of surface the nosewheel will probably let go anyhow. Very few U/L nosewheels can take much. Nev

Dead right Nev, LIGHT sport aircraft are constructed ( mostly anyway ! ) to be just that. They are constructed to be L I G H T . . . . and as such, can only be made to a certain structural strength to remain within whatever weight contsrtaints the particular country of operation has directed. . . ., given the available materials. They are not really intended to be THAT "Agricultural, and will, if operated in conditions for which they were not designed, probably not function all that well. I wonder if there are any stats on how many trike undercarted LSA machines have suffered gear failures after a few "Wheelbarrow" landings ? there are quite a few GA appliances which have, according to the reports, but I've seen no particularly directed statistics on that subject. Probably be interesting from a trainiing point of view maybe. . . .

 

Look Out, unneccesary story coming up. . . .! )

 

I watched a previous Ladyfriend ( ! ) being sent on her second solo in winds that made me doubt the parenthood of her instructor, ie fifteen knot crosswind at thirty degrees,. . . .(After only ONE SOLO FLIGHT ???????? Gimme a break. . . ) single runway ( Welshpool Airport in Welsh Wales. . . 06'/24 wedged parallel against the side of a 2000 ft escarpment,. . . . all sorts of weird wind effects at that place. . . .) she bounced once, then twice, each time amplifying the problem. . . and on the third bounce, the nosewheel said "Enough Already ! and collapsed. . . , the Tomahawk slewed off the runway into the crosswind sliding on it's nose, and embedded itself into the boundary fence. She got out, ( And I swear by almighty God this is very close truth. . . . . ) KICKED the poor aeroplane twice. . . .and after slouching back to the clubhouse, said " Oh dear,. . . I've crashed " . . . we all said "Really ? "

 

(If you ever read this Jenny, please accept my most profuse apologies )

 

Jenny GOT her PPL some weeks later anyway, at the same airfield. She said that the abovementioned incident was rather like. . . .Kangarooing the clutch when you're learning to drive a manual car. . . . . ( This was in the pub of course, a few weeks later. . . )

 

Good description I thought. . . . Dunno what the insurance company said though.

 

 

I am impressed to think there are people good enough to fly some thing like that, they look like they would have a stall speed of about 120 knts and the touque factor would be an interesting challenge. An engine failure situation would be a hell of a challenge also.

Hiya Techie, . . . . . what I REALLY meant to say in response to Merv's queestion was that the TIGER CUB, was the smallest BIPLANE in the UK. . . . . . a really HORRIBLE little Bas***d to fly, ( I KNOW. . . I tried one. . . ) because it was designed by someone who had absoloutley NO IDEA about how aircraft fly. . . and SOLD several sets of plans, and some completed airframes, to an unwitting public some of whom were killed outright, one got barbecued after a takeoff stall / spin, and another has both legs maimed for life, BEFORE THE PROTOTYPE HAD EVEN GOT OFF THE GROUND. Nowadays this could not have happened, this was back in the early eighties before there was any regulation or standard for building and selling homebuild aircraft. He should have been burned at the stake, but wan't. IO have mentioned this aircraft in other posts. As for the other pictures we have seen of rather silly miniature aircraft, these are, as far as I am concerned, a bit of fun, and if they are "flyable" in the truest sense of the word, then it would be a surprise to me.

 

And I've flown some damned silly "aerothings" On the TC, there was ONE entry / Exit door, which opened from the FRONT. . . . the door catch was one of those things you see in a cheap kitchen unit, and if it opened whilst you were flying, ( which mine did by the way,. . .) the machine departed from "normal" level flight into a violent sort of non spin, but pitching, gyrating spiral dive to the right which nearly broke my neck with it's violence. . . . When I shut ithe door, I was able to recover from the descent with the usual inputs, and very glad I had my brown corduroys on at the time. . . . but that shows what a rubbish design it was for even a moderately competent pilot to fly safely. There were other issues too, like "for christ's sake don't try and sideslip it. . . ." it goes on. I'm just VERY GLAD that in the current training environment, not many people get killed any more by stupid designs which shouldn't have been sold in the first instance.

 

The Tiger Cub was modified and made reasonably safe by a guy named Jim Romain ( of Romain Propellers fame in the UK ) and fourteen inches was added to the length of the fuselage, amongst other things, and a few are sitill flying. The nose cowl on the one shown in my avatar was made froma Ken Hom Chinese cooking WOK. . . . . dunno about the tyres, probably licorice allsorts.

 

You don't have to be Impressed by people who fly this sort of $hit really, most of these things are just curiosities and are worth no more serious thought than that.

 

Next time I visit the Boulton and Paul aircraft museum, I'll take some pics of the "Black Adder" Tiger Cub, I can't sensibly use the word aircraft, that would be a misnomer,. . . and post them.

 

 

The front bit looks not too dissimilar to the "OPTICA" which was around about fifteen years ago, very helicpotery frontal design, full bubble frontage. . . although it had a twin boom with jointed horizontal tailplane and internal ducted fan thrust in a pusher config too. . . . was intended for Police surveillance, being costed at around one fifth of the cost of a helicopter. . . . it could fly comfortably at around fifty mph ( If I remember correctly. . .) and some UK area police forces were very interested at the time. . . . but it all went pear shaped when the company got into financial difficulties, and the hangar containing four aircraft and all the tooling mysteriously burned down one night. . . . Don't think there are any examples left. . . . If I can find a pic I'll post it.

 

Phil.

 

* * * * * * *Editied to add* * * * * * *

 

Well,. . . . surprise surprise. . . . I just dialled OPTICA into WIKI whatsit, and the whole story came up, ( It didn't the last time I looked !!!!!!!!!!!!! ) apparently, they made 21 of the things but one crashed, killing a couple of Police personnel,. . . . and after that it all died down a bit. . . . . anyway, if you're interested, look at EDGLEY OPTICA and read the damn thing yourselves ! Lovely looking aeroplane, whether there would be any interest from the great unwashed GA public, I dunno,. . . . great for aerial photography though ?. . . I'd love one to add to my aeroplane collection. . . . ( ! )

 

 

Did you see both valves? I have both open on takeoff and landing. No mods required.This thread sums it up..... http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/foxbat-curiousity.49690/

Can't add any more to what I've already said mate, if you are not happy with this for some reason, then ok, so be it. I like Foxbats generally, so let's leave it at that.

 

Kind regards,

 

Phil

 

 

Hi D.U.

 

I agreed with another poster on the fuel switch subject BECAUSE. . . being a long time Cessna appliance operator for lots of years, I just LIKE. . . . the choice of a "Both Tanks" setting. HOWEVER, I realise that to accomplish this in the Foxbat would require additional plumbing, and serious Mod paperwork. And since there have been no reported problems with the status quo, I have managed to cope perfectly well with the existing setup.

 

Have YOU got no tiny niggling dislikes about something or other. . . ? ( apart from pommie flyers with weird ideas ? ) On balance, there's a LOT more I LIKE about Foxbats than not.

 

My problem is I guess, that I am a "Jack of lots of aircraft " ( master of none. )

 

 

Who ??? MOI ? ( Never ! ) Anyway, behave yourselves now, and stick to the damn topic ( ! )

 

 

Guys, great posts about small aircraft etc, very worthy of a thread in its own right BUT please and start another interesting thread about these interesting aircraft

Quite right Ian. . . . ( Geeez Alan, you've got me another Bo***cking ! )

 

Great pictures guys, BUT,. . . . . can you float them down to the ground with the stick fully back ??????????

 

 

 

Yeah, I wodered if someone would dig this one up !!!!!!!!!

 

I have not seen one fly, but I'm reliably informed that they DO !! ( I've actually heard it described as nothing more than a streamlined ENGINE with SOME lift and directional control ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! )

 

 

I was all primed up to let loose.......( bag gyros at your peril )Ok phil..........let's just ( ozyies ) towel you pommes up with the oncoming cricket ashes...........( back under me rock reeeel quick )

OK Mate, well. . . . we're havin a hard time with the Indians at the moment, could do with an easy job in OZ ( ! )

My Brother wants to buy a Gyro, but can't make up his mind between an outdoor or indoor cockpit type !!!!!

 

 

Hi Phil, yes thats true but I dont think anyone was trying to suggest that.Cheers

ps, is that a stagarwing in your profile pic?

Hi Merv,

 

Actually, I was referring to some of the other postings on the thread regarding freestyle landings which worried me a little. . .

 

The avatar pic. . .

 

Is an Antonov AN2, and the tiny thing next to it is a Tiger Cub - biggest and (possibly) smallest single engined biplanes ? ( no doubt someone will post a pic of an even smaller one now. . .! )

 

 

one thing that can happen in the foxbat...not that i am implying anything here .....is that u can get in a situation where u attempt to fly with no tank selected...they have a poor fuel selection setup...a tap on the left and right....if they had a çentral'selection it would improve things....also...little wheels dont like rough paddocks...

Hi Cfi. . . . that paddock grass looks a bit "Thick"and claggy, not many "Average" wheels are going to cope with that, even at extremely low contact speed ? I know that Foxbats can, with full flap deployed, land at quite a nice sedate pace, but when the nosewheel buries itself in soft / rough grass like that depicted,, . . . . it doesn't take much for the remaining inertia to forward flip, however gracefully. . . .

 

When I did my check flight in the first one built in the UK years ago. . ., the importer / Instructor ( Who was based at our airfield - Otherton ) told me to be really gentle with that nosewheel, and not to use the brakes at all unless it was really unavoidable, as the nosegear assembly was ( then ) a bit "Fragile" for grass strips due to the manner of attachment of the noseleg. We have experienced several noseleg failures at our site, though not for over a year, these all failed whilst the aircraft were taxying on our pretty good smooth, level, well kept grass, indicating possible progressive failure in the system of attachment to the airframe. ( Poor general maintenance or even pre-flight inspection perhaps. . . ? ) Three of the aircraft concerned were operated by four person syndicates, so that the possibility might exist of the odd "Firm" landing. . . going unreported in the group hangar log. . . Later kit issues could well have been "beefed up" a bit since then. Foxbats do have a very good safety record here though, the only other problem one of our members had with his Foxbat Sport was the detachment of the rudder control mechanism at the tail end,. which resulted in a lot of flutter, but no serious loss off control, this has been modified via LAA directive.

 

I guess the watchword is, stay out of rough grass until a set of Dazza38 tractor wheels are fittted !

 

I agree entirely re the fuel selection though, I don't know of a reported fuel management issue, but the potential certainly exists when the fuel selector(s) are behind the pilot.

 

The ONLY design feature I really don't like with all the "single centre stick" models here is the positioning of the throttle lever on the door sills, ( ripped me shorts sliding out twice ! ! ! )

 

Insufficient info regarding history of the particular flight to permit much further speculation as to the cause, until the PIC reports what happened. . . . Do these surviveable "fender benders" require any sort of official investigation in Australia, or is that only in the event of serious injury / fatality I wonder ? In the UK, ALL accidents have to be reported if an aircraft suffers any structural damage / deformation, whether there were any injuries or not. Although they tend to allocate a lower priority to minor("ISH") "benders" especially if similar ones have happened before, or when the cause is blindingly obvious.

 

Be interested to know. . . .

 

Phil

 

******EDITED TO ADD********

 

Reading Merv's post just now, I have to state that with a total of 93 hours on foxbats, I am not even approaching the point where I would advise a pilot to use ANY other form of approach method outside of that published in the POH, and demonstrated by an instructor qualified on type. Surely anything else should reasonably fit into the "Unauthorsied Test Pilot" ( Darwin Award Attempt ) category ?

 

 

Can't really add anything useful to that FD,

 

I've never regarded myself as a philosopher, nor aviation psychologist of any kind. . . . . . Pilot training should instill the required technical and practical skills into the candidate, and following successful examination of what has been learned, the rest is going to be down to EXPERIENCE, the one aspect which cannot be taught. Personally. . . I wouldn't try to dissect the subject into infinitely minutely detailed semantics, this would, in my view considerably reduce the gloroius FUN factor which most of us derive from flying. Otherwise the question must be, is it really the right pastime to pursue ?

 

Phil

 

 

"self destruct factor"..............please explain further......( this might get interesting )

Hiya Russ. . . . ( Humour - ark ark. . .)

 

I was quoting a bloke who has trashed THREE helicopters and also Two and a half Gyros. He was a Heli Instructor at a nearby airfield until they moved to a larger site a few years ago,. . . He reckoned that it COULDN'T possibly have been his lack of skill, ( ?!) just the "Inherent Built - in destruct factor seemingly present with machines reliant on rotating wings for levitation. !!

 

When questioned regarding the "Half - Gyro" this was the name he gave to a non powwered Gyro Glider which he crashed whilst being towed behind a truck in Canada. . . !

 

Personally I've got no axe to grind regarding rotaries. . . . I blag flights in gyros whenever I get the opportunity, I'm just not wealthy enough these days to take a "G" course, NOR to purchase a machine later. . . !

 

There isn't any reduction in hours on the gyro training requirements here for GA or even previous H experience, and perhaps this is just as well.

 

Gyros seem to be much more useful than LSAs or Microlights here with the awful winds we get seemingly every weekend throughout the summer, especially throughout 2011 and 2012.

 

At our last fly - in, only five aircraft arrived, FOUR of which were GYROS, whose pilots kindly did lots of airex flights for visitors and members alike, and thus saved the day, in winds which pretty well grounded everything else. The second day, two more Gyros turned up, so that we could at least say we had a "Fly-In" !! On that day, the kids' bouncy castle as well as the Club's marquee were blown away.

 

Says it all really.

 

 

Carolyn Grace Im guessing

Good Guess Dazza !

 

** Edited to add. . . . **** I worked on a cattle station for a very short while, but DIDN'T manage to "Pull" a gorgeous Commercial pilot friend ( male OR female ! ! ! ! !! )