Phil Perry

I get back to The Green about once a year. Last time was last October . Had a lovely flight in a Warrior , taking in Ludlow , Worcester , Kidderminster and returned the long way via Ironbridge and Bridgnorth . Previous to that I had a fly in a Cirrus SR20 , very nice indeed . Next time over there at this stage looks to be about October again .. Have fun at Otherton , I have often wondered what the go there was as I passed by on the M6 , I know now ..

Phil

Good link. . . . .

We have some Female pilots here too ( ! ) One of 'em owns a 2 seat SPITFIRE. . . . . why can't I find a girlfriend like that. . . . . . . .

Hi FD,

I think a current flying instructor would be the best person to answer your general query re SARWATCH, this is a facility we are not offered in the UK, but when I was flying in Australia, ( left there in '82 )

the reason it is not offered here in the UK, is that we don't really have what could be called "Remote" areas, where an aircraft might disappear un-noticed. . . although it is quite easy to file a flight plan from anywhere to anywhere, and request a Flight Infomation Service, until you arrive at destination., this has now been whittled down to a "Basic Sevice" which gives No conflicting traffic advice at all, for that you would request a Radar Advisory Service. but again, this is only available from Military sites, so is a bit limited in some areas of the country. An Advisory service means that the station worked will give you information about any possible conflicting traffic, whther they are working it on the radio or not, and suggest a course alteration.

An R.I.S. was similar, but all you got was INFORMATION, and what you did about it was your affair. Of course, this facility would be to say the least Difficult, in a continent as enormously huge as Australia, because Radar ( in them thar days ) was on what was called "K" band,. . . ( And now it's even higher up. . . ) which operated around One Gigahertz on the radio spectrum, this frequency ( Or wavelength) is at the bottom of what's called the "Microwave" SECTION of the RF spectrum, and signals at these frequencies rapidly deteriorate over quite short distances, even when compared to the VHF freqs still used for voice comms.

So basically, you would have huge areas of the country which were not covered by radar at a low enough level to be of any use to GA / LSA traffic. So the SArwatch principle was quite a clever idea, as long as it was used properly.

When flying across fairly remote areas in Australia, you would give the ground station your intended route, time of departure, and estimated time of arrival at the other end. This would mean that when your SARTIME expired, and you didn't call that you had arrived safely, a Yellow Alert phase would be declared, and if you hadn't called in within a Half hour of the agreed sartime, a RED alert would be declared and search and rescue operations would then be instigated. I always thought that this, compared with the UK was a very good system. DCA ( now CASA) used to get a bit dark on you, if you just forgot to call at destination and cancel the Sarwatch, as I'm sure happened from time to time, just like when a pilot got distracted, and forgot to close his flight plan across the English Channel from France to England, and they launched a Sea King Helicopter to go and look for him. . . . . ( I can't remember what that cost, but I'll bet it was a lot. )

When I did a small number of ferrying jobs, I always used the Sarwatch service, very cheap and useful, and as long as I didn't get lost ( !!!!!!!!!! ) this would have assured that someone out there at least knew approximately what trackline to follow to find me upside down in the scrub after my botched forced landing ! I don't know if things have changed radically in the last few decades, but when I was carrying innocent victims, on top of an accurate flight plan, ( Which I mostly tried to stick to like $**t to a blanket. . . ) I always went Full Reporting, ie, an "Operations Normal" radio call to the nearest available AFTN ground station each half hour.

Looooooong answer to a short question again mate,. . . . . but then I'm bored with the foot of snow on the airfield, and got nowt better to do.

Better ask a FI, or some of the other Aussie "Old Timers" on this forum as my info is a bit dated. On the subject of "Obligations" I guess that if you give them all the correct information about your intended flight, and STICK to the plan, their "Obligation" will be to come and rescue you; just as is YOUR obligation to stick to your part of the bargain.

Other than that, you need to contact the Government for a legal definition of what it is you need to know about "Obligations"

Phil

I fly at about 3 feet, just before I touch down, is that low enough for you?Personally I prefer it up high where the air is smooth and should the unthinkable happen (or the inevitable depending on your choice of motor), I will have plenty of time to think about it!

 

PS: If ever I get my beloved gyro, then I may just give low a go!

On the subject of low flying, how about twelve feet at 85 Kt spraying sorghum ??

Do you mean Philperryists or Philatelists ? Eric

I believe we had a thread about this a while ago where somebody came up with statistics that showed you did NOT flip over with fixed (esp tricycle) undercarriage despite the popular assumption that you would.....Cheers

 

Neil

I think that, although there are statistics on FIXED Undercarriage ditchings . . ., there are not really ENOUGH ( Fortunately) to sensibly form a solid conclusion nor basis for training manuals. . . . Logic should dictate that "To forward Flip" or not, . . . MUST be dependent upon several factors, such as, angle of entry into the water, speed of entry, size and weight ( mass ) of the particular aircraft, all leading to the question of. . .what is the total INERTIAL force acting upon the airframe during sudden decelleration, . . . surely this is going to create a very important and highly variable set of actual results.

You're right Neil, I've seen similar threads over the years on this very topic, , , , but NEW pilots and students tend to re-awaken the subject on a regular basis. So, not surprisingly, I guess we'll go on discussing it. ( I don't mind, there's a few tons of snow on the hangar roof at the moment, and I'd rather be gossipping on the forum than de-icing wings. ! )

And as a quick reply to the Ex-Underpaid Stuntman ( I love that Sapph. . . ! ) I agree that a fixed trike OR T/w U/C will definitely cause a nose to pitch under initially, but some of them seem to bob - up again, ( POSSIBLY due to air trapped in the mainplanes - if they are not ripped off. . . . ) giving Elvis [ and hopefully Mrs. Elvis... ] a little time ( occasionally ) to leave the building.

Phil

Of course if you have fixed u/c you are going to flip over nose first. Wonder if you kick in full rudder just before entering the water, you will sideslip in and your wing will have enough boyancy to keep a/c upright. If anyone want to try it, tell us how it went.

The hardest part of a water landing ( according to some survivor accounts ) seems to be accurately judging your vertical position above the water level, as I found doing seaplane ratings, this is made even more difficult if you are a long way offshore, with no scale reference, or the water is fairly smooth, unfortunately a steady "Powered" descent into the oggin is not an option if your engine has quit. . . . As Maj commented, getting the airspeed down as slow as possible whilst maintaining control. . . and approaching INTO any wind has to be a good start.

As has already been said, it's an expensive thing to practice. . . and in a high stress situation like that, it's a bit hard to know exactly ANY of us, however experienced, might actually perform . . . How many of us actually practice "DITCHING DRILLS" now and again ? Did YOUR flying training school have a checklist for this ?

Very interesting subject anyway.

Good to hear that you're healing up well Mark. Keep up the Heavy Breathing excercises !!

Interesting that you've got a couple of VK station calls as well. . . is one of them a Club station or something I wonder . . . ?

OOps drifting further OFF TOPIC again. . . !! Maybe we could start a "Post pictures of your HAM RADIO station" ( OR OTHER PASTIME ) thread as well ! ! Any boomerang collectors or Philateists out there in crazy-aviatorland ?

On my Continental 0-200 I could get extra 200 fpm by just leaning a bit on a hot day. I leaned as if I was on cruise. But you want to be richer than that, so richen the mixture a bit more and listen for detonation. Somebody should come out with a recording of detonation sounds. Might even make the top 10.

I cannot understand how anyone flying from Darwin to Alice without Navs can get lost.....I mean would anyone follow anything other than the main road? I mean there are a few bends and curves, but for the most parts not enough to introduce enormous extra distances..... its the +/- 230kmph vs the 100kmph taht makes all the difference...When I purchased my J230 it was in Tully FNQ and home was Adelaide, I pretty much went direct and have to say that was as a result of naeivity at the time.....there really isnt that much down there to navigate to and from once you get away from major roads and railways..there are rivers, but the differences between dry and wet are vast to the point I wouldnt want to rely on them cause the WAC's only show them as they were at the time the mapping was done.....

 

EPIRB (with GPS), and SPoT and a Good Telstra 3G/4G phone is essential. Out that way other brands of carrier for the phone ensures that what you have is a FUED not an OMG moment phone (F&Kn Useless Electronic Device).

 

Andy

Ditching is generally considered to be a forced but controlled landing into a non aerodrome environment ("PanPan" emergency). An example cause would be visible leaking fuel from a wing tank (certainly not the only reason, though).If fuel ignited it would be a Mayday emergency, putting down as soon as possible wherever possible.

 

You can ditch into a paddock, water or other area.

I think you'll find that "Ditching" into a paddock ( when you had no internion of landing in the paddock, but circumstances called for it . . .) is termed a "Forced Landing"

Not to be confused with " Let's DITCH the car and walk home from the pub. . . . ( ! )

The term "DITCHING" is and has always referred to an UN-PLANNED landing into WATER, but with the aircraft UNDER SOME SORT OF CONTROL.

If you need to make ANY kind of forced landing, this means that you are UNABLE to maintain normal flight, and that, is an EMERGENCY, and needs a Mayday radio call. An emergency is a situation where the aircraft, pilot and passengers are in grave and imminent danger. Yes I agree, "Ignited" fuel would certainly fall into that category ! ! ! ! !

A PAN call as has already pointed out is an "URGENCY" message, where you are not in IMMEDIATE danger but may have a problem of some sort, EG., your passenger has passed out, and you think he might have had a heart attack, and you want a shortcut routing ( even across controlled airspace ) to the nearest airfield where you can meet an ambulance, But in this situation, your AIRCRAFT is not in any immediate danger of falling outr of the sky.

The "Fuel visually leaking from the wing " example isn't a MAYDAY either, that would be a PAN call, to request a divert to the nearest suitable airfield before you became a Glider, OR to advise ATC that you were going to attempt a precautionary landing somewhere flattish.

You would upgrade to MAYDAY whan ALL of the fuel had leaked out. . .

Happy Landings. . . .

Phil

Geeez mate,. . . . ( do people still SAY that ??? )

It must be GREAT to have technology to fly around OZ nowadays. . . . I remember flying down from Moresby via Darwin to Alice, (incl. a few odd fuel stops enroute. . .) with nothing but wac / vec / vtcs and hoping the forecast winds were not too far out. . . an RNC might have been handy, but if your onboard navaids were either not working, ( regular occurence with old, knackered fifth hand machines. . . ) or not fitted at all. . . than it was a bit academic. . . . . on a few similar occasions I MAY have even prayed to God that I'd give up women AND BEER, for some accurate Dick Tracy pocket navigation gizmo which hadn't been invented yet. . . . Got to be honest Gooney, It leaves me behind as well. . . . . .

(Digitally Illiterate )

I read a post somewhere on this forum last week, where the poster asked "What's the best way to DITCH an aircraft. . . . "

Can't find the poster, or the thread. . . obviously not concentrating. I found the site indicated below which contains some interesting information regarding water landings, it's point is to try and contradict some myths on the subject, . . . most interesting I think, definitely worth a read. . . . .

"A ditching" can be defined as a controlled landing into water. ( Otherwise, it's just a crash. )

www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm

Cheers all. . . . .

Phil P.

That's interesting Nev,. . . . . I always wanted a flight in a Sunderland Flying boat, ever since I built the Airfix model. . . . ( ! ) I had fun a ride in a Catalina which was owned by a bunch of South African blokes who used to fly into Lae ( PNG ) occasionally, I think they were involved with some sort of university funded underwater photography project. as it was full of diving gear and U/W cameras ( pretty quick me. . . .) this thing had a stupendous range, I forget how many hours they reckoned it could stay in the air, but it was rather a lot !! Good job it had a galley for the omelettes ( or whatever it is that sed effrikans eat ) the main prob was that they kept speaking in Afrikaaner, which is a bit like Dutch ( ! ) This was back in the apartheid days, when the Blix were second class citizens. and Nelson Mandela was still banged up on Robin Island. . . . . . . .

Anyway, ( losing the plot again phil. . .) The Lake has a "Stepped" sort of fuselage design as do a lot of seaplanes, as opposed to landplanes with floatythingies hanging off the bottom. . . . Hence the saying " Getting it up on the step. . . " ) as, of course floats do also, to progressively reduce, as waterspeed increases, and aerodynamic lift begins to occur. . . the tendency for the surface tension of the water surface to retard aviation. This is why I didn't do much damage to the aaaarssseee end of the structure, just the main keel bottom and one of the outrigger floats. . . . ( but the repair cost was several weeks wages.)

Phil

Thanks Mate...what would have been the result?

Slightly assymentric freestyle descent ? ? ? ? ? ? ( ! )

Hi Phil,I can't comment about your experience in your industry .. however in my industry, being the oil biz, most products and basically all engine lubes are made to meet or exceed an agreed spec and tested to industry agreed test programmes.

 

There are some smaller oil or additive companies that do make some claims that are hard to pin down as they are not measured against recognised test programmes... some work some don't.

 

Whilst I can sense your scepticism ... a formal recommendation by a major oil company (not a sales rep or some good intentioned retailer) is underpinned with millions of dollars and thousands of hours of testing. There may well be better products out there that may work well or even better, however it's a game of Russian Roulette to try something not recommended, approved or tested .. believe me I have seen the other side of the "when things go wrong".

 

If I was given a clean sheet to design a new lube for a specific aircraft engine I suspect it would look a little different, however if you wanted the same lube to be backward compatible with other products and tolerate top ups and work in 85% of all aero engines and also meet the OEM performance requirements, you may not end up with something not a lot different. Often you can improve the performance of a lube very simply but then make it fail in another area when you chemically push it over the edge ... there is a lot of balance to get a lube to meet all the performance requirements.... I often see this happen when people put their own additives into a lube and unwittingly damage another performance characteristic.

 

Whilst the perception that aero lubes have not progressed is not true either ... new additives, better more stable base oil and better manufacturing and test programmes has improved old formulations a long way.

 

As for testing, suggesting an air cooled motorcycle caught in traffic test as a good proof of product performance is not something I would want to use to risk anyones life on for an aero lube. Testing is done by dedicated people following exact recognised processes which gets repeated over and over again before any field tested can be considered ... bwt, this also includes test progrmmes to make sure motorcycles lubes can tolerate traffic jams, albeit we don't park motorcycles in traffic but we do simulate it at first then do the field trials in the real world. However just making a motorcycle lubes not thermally crack in traffic is just one performance issue ... making it shear stable to work in the gearbox, not allow the clutch to slip, clean the engine, hold soot in suspension to get caught in the filter, not turn into foam, provide corrosion protection, absorb acids, maintain viscosity, give proper anti-wear protection etc etc are just a few and all are important.

 

I agree there is always room to improve and develop new technology ... this is evolutionary process and people are always looking at the next new piece of technology, it will come, but it takes many years to get this over the line safely.

 

In terms of aero engine lubes selection for myself ... I only trust what is approved and recommended by major oil companies and the OEMs... however I will select a multigrade over a mono grade if it is approved.

 

Multigrades can do all that a monos can but a monos can't multitask as well.

 

Cheers

 

Vev

Hi Vev, and thanks for that,. . . .

One of my long standing aviator friends; Ian Mitchell, who worked for 12 years with Albright and Wilson oil development & technology, explained most of what you just posted to a Club meeting some years ago, he now works with ( as well as oils )researching and developing long chain molecule products ( bloody shampoo - as he calls it. . . ) for another similar development company, . . . . and we have this discussion about "LUBES" on a regular basis at our airfield when engines go bung after running the makers' favourite oils . . . . so I am au fait with the rationale which you have posted for our eddification ( very clearly put as well IMHO ) and please don't be offended by my comments, which were not intended to be in any way derisory. The point I really made was that we have seen, ad nauseum, statements from various oil suppliers, some recommended by manufacturers, to be suitable for our operations incidentally, case in point,. . . Morrisons Mineral Oil used to be one of the most popular oils used in two stroke Microlight engines ( R-337 Robin 440, R447 / 462 / 532 / 582 for some years, even though you had to scrape a crapload of carbon deposits from pistons after around fifrty hours of using the stuff.

Guess what their advertising tagline was ??? "You can be ASSURED. . blah blah blah. . .research and testing . . blah blah blah. . " Of course the process of technology is evolutionary, but usually driven by the market, ie, high - time users of the product. Therefore, surely to suggest that alternatives which offer "Apparent Advantages" in other, perhaps slightly similar operations. . . should never be tried when for one reason or another the user is patently unhappy with the recommended product is at the very least debatable, however many millions of whatever currency has been allegedly injected into the product in question.

I guess, as you point out, if you want engine insurance, then you HAVE to go with the maker's guidelines, but how the hell you would police that, is, as has often been said,. . .another story.

Aw, Gee, I'm glad someone finally sorted that one out, Hey. . . Thanks Al, you're a star *

Or a really bad fencing accident.

I dunno. . . . .Maybe the guy was making mad passionate love to a She-Werewolf, and she got a bit carried away in the heat of the moment ??????

Well you won't scrape the prop tips with a Lake so you can go round. what do you call a gear down in water. A plunk and dunk? Nev

The infamous Dave Squirrell told me a story one night at the pub, about him fishing on Lake Eildon whilst sitting on the wing of a Lake Bucc, the aircraft had been through some maintenance recently, and he said that after a while, his feet seemed to be in the water, when they shouldn't have been. He looked into the cockpit and said Oh ****. we're bloody sinking.

His unidentified mate, who had been fishing from the other wing, jumped off the aircraft and struck out for the shore, ( trying to keep it accutrate. . . he didn't say how far it was )

He said that he jumped back into the cockpit and fired up the engine. m He then taxied it back toward the shore. His story continues in that he lowered the ground landing gear and aimed towards a concrete boat ramp. He reckoned that by the time he reached the ramp, he had a bow wave which was just below his neck.

He said that he hit the ramp at around 10 - 15 Mph, and then bumped into a parked car because the wheel brakes were wet. Knowing Dave quite well, ( as some of you do also ) I don't know how much of this tale is accurate, and how much is romancing. He DID say that the only repercussions were the damage to the car, as the bloke's insurers did not believe his report of. . . . . "Dear sir, I was having a burger, when an aeroplane came out of a lake and hit my car. . . . . .

I'll leave that one to you blokes . . . . .( cracking yarn though ?? ) [ And before you tecchies ask about submerged cockpit electrics. . . . . . Remember this is a hangar yarn recounted in a PUB ! ]

Oh and by the way NEV, when ( if - maybe ) you ever fly a Bucc., or a similar High thrustline pusher, when you apply full power suddenly, the bloody thing tries to nosedive because of the high thrust line creating quite a noticeable pitch - down moment. . ., so you have to be ready for that, and compensate immediately. . . your mentor will mention it no doubt ( ! ) If you already HAVE a seaplane rating on high thrustline Pusher types, please forgive the comment.

Phil

"Scrape 'n Stay"

( Utterly and completely OFF TOPIC. . . . why oh why when someone has had only a boiled egg for breakfast, and they throw up all over you and your pristine instrument panel. . . . . . does it always look like diced carrots ? ? ? ? ? ? ? )

Phil ..Thanks for keeping us in the picture ... BTW do you fly from the small airfield nr the M6 junc at Penkridge by any chance ?? .. I'm an ex Halfpenny Greener ..

I usually fly ( GA Appliances to keep my hours in, I fly Microlights on a rating on the GA ticket . . .) from Tatenhill, ( EGBM ) which is near to Burton upon Trent, it's about the same distance, but I can do it in under 20 mins on the bike, and it's all country lanes, whereas driving to the Green is a pain as I have to go thru Wolverhampton and it takes about 1.5 hours in the traffic. ( in the car that is. . . too many bloody speed / tax cameras for the bike ! ! ! )

I mentioned in a previous post that my mate Tony and I walked the Otherton field back in 1990, and made a deal with the farmer to bring the Sataffordshire Aero Club there and make it our base. SInce then, it's gone through a few different operators, but it is now run by Club Pilots for Club Members and no money gets creamed off the site in commercial profits. . . . ( apart from into the farmer's pockets !!!! )

Phil ( long answer to a short question - sorry )

Chutes are not compulsory in Australia as in other countries therefore there isn't continual discussion on them. There is however, a lot of discussion on them over all the years this site has been running here in the Recreational Flying forums so you just need to do a search. I had one added when I purchased my 2nd new Flight Design CTsw and although I registered it 544kg, I was actually allowed a MTOW of 564kg (544 + the 20kg of the chute) as the aircraft was certified at 600kg (LSA).Whilst I hoped I would never need the chute, it was a good investment in giving both myself, my wife and my family peace of mind when I was out flying...not to mention my phone also sms'ing the wife my lat and long every 15mins.

 

What was interesting is I purchased the brand new CTsw from the agent. I found an AD came out on the chute handle yet an AD wasn't announced by RAAus so I contacted the Tech Mgr at the time (Chris Keine) and advised him of it. Chris followed up with the agent and advised back that there wasn't any aircraft in Australia that was subject to the AD. I took a photo of the chute handle that displayed that it was in fact the handle which was the subject of the AD and sent it off to Chris at RAAus. Several days later I was then contacted by the agent, whom I purchased the brand new aircraft from, advising me they would be getting the handle fixed under warranty.

 

Here's the thing...had I not made a big deal of the handle AD and found myself in that once in a lifetime scenario where I had to pull the handle, and it didn't work, I wonder what would have been the repercussions?

That was most interesting, especially the bit about the dodgy actuator handle, . . . . bit like a ring - pull on a can of beer really, it's whole reason for existence is a ONE- OFF task. . . , and if it doesn't do that it's a bit of a waste of time, although, I appreciate that the failure of a BRS handle is a little more important than opening a tinnie. . . . , and probably cannot be fixed in good time with a screwdriver ! ! !

Nothing wrong in being prepared, especially if someone in another aircraft knocks one of your wings off. . . . . They certainly are not mandatory here either, although I beleive that they might be in Germany. . . but then again they have some pretty strict rules about all sorts of things there, but that would be off topic.

When they were first mooted in the UK some years ago, some worthy at UK CAA flight safety suggested that you might have to employ a military trained armourer to arm the system pre flight, then come back and disarm it when you got home, as it used an explosive charge to deploy, and one of the prime rules in this country is that you must not carry explosive devices in a private aircraft. . . . . ( ! ) I always carried a flare pistol and spare flares in the raft bag when ferrying over water,. . .. nobody ever raised an eyebrow about that at the time !!! ( Maybe that's one of the differences between commercial and private ops - I dunno - maybe DCA were sorry for us because there were no hand held vsbs available then. . . ! )

Anyway, thanks for the info, I'll keep reading the various OZ forums for more eddification.

Kind regards,

Phil

SILKOLENE COMP-2 PREMIX ( UK ) has always been labelled ( for around 25 years ) as suitable for use in aircraft using two stroke engines. Anyway, must go home now as security want to lock up the airfield, and the missus won't accept another excuse of being locked in. . . . . .

Thanks Nev, your comments are always appreciated, even if I don't totally agree with the point you are trying to make.

Kind regards,

Phil

Ouch Tim,

That's another thing the Aussies have beaten us with. . . . I have not heard of ANY Foxbat in the UK having A BRS fitted. . . .( yet ) looks like you're now leading the world mate !! . . . .

I guess that on a thread somewhere along the line, someone is going to plaintifully ask. . . . "In what sort of situation would I be recommended to deploy my BRS ?? and also perhaps. . . WHEN YOU MAYBE SHOULDN'T HAVE ??

I watched a really horrible youtube vid from the USA last year showing a couple of people in a single engined aircraft ( type wasn't identified, ) who'd had a cockpit fire in the air, ( height / altitude of deployment not mentioned ) and deployed the BRS.

What happened after this was truly awful to behold, they had their own private crematorium, which drifted gently down to earth in a level attitude, taking several minutes. . . . The video showed only the last three minutes of the descent . . . . .

At the point that it arrived on the ground, the machine and crew were almost completely consumed by the fire, but the parachute was undamaged, and had performed it's designed duty faultlessly. It lowered the airframe slowly back onto the ground.

I assume that these things cannot be jettisoned if operated accidentally, or prematurely ?? I have asked this direct question to several suppliers of these systems and been met with either incredulity, or no response at all.

I think it's at least worthy of consideration, but then I'm an awkward Bu*ger.

Hi All,

Been thread watching for a while, but so far I have not seen any discussion regarding BRS Parachutes, are they widely available for use in Australian registered aircraft types ?

Lots of discussions on the European forums, any thoughts ?

Just curious

Phil