BoxFat

Haha..yeah we've all done that. It was in the West Australian yesterday: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17579858/plane-missing-at-ground-level/ It's also on the RA website. It's such an unusual thing that it's a wonder it hasn't appeared in the press over east (or in the news thread here). It worries me a bit because I can't think of any sensible reason, financial gain or otherwise, why one would steal a Jabiru from a hangar (which had other aircraft in it). In the absence of any "sensible" reason to want to steal a light aircraft one then starts to think of "non-sensible" reasons...and THAT quickly becomes scary.

Yebbut Yebbut Yebutttt.... I just wanna know how an Aussie Jab end up as the star in that video ?? Surely can't be just random can it ? Has anyone told the good people at Bundaberg that their little creation can keep up with a 727 ?? By the way, no connection but a Jab SP has just been stolen from Northam airfield over here in WA...police investigation proceeding.

P.S. about your other query on XC navigation in OZ. Two words. 1. GPS 2. Silos. Those big white things you can see for miles. Nearly all of them near a railway line. Trouble is a lot of them look the same. Don't trust the lakes marked on the WAC chart or appearing on Google Earth. Most are ephemeral so they change shape and colour which can be jolly confusing. Finally, in Europe winter is not the time for flying but it's the best time here in WA...gorgeous calm clear days cf. flying in a flipping washing machine between about Nov and March. Enjoy !!

G'Day Chezza, welcome. Definitely come up and see us at Bindoon, about an hour's drive north of Perth on the Great Northern Highway. That's where the Super Light Aircraft Club of WA (SLACWA) is based and there is a flying school operating Jabs and some other chariots - I have a Foxbat A22LS but there are all different kinds from Gyros to powered gliders and some experimental GA types etc. The club and school operate weekends/Pub hols only (or after hours in summer) due to being within the RAAF Pearce training zone. The airfield is on Dewars Pool Rd. and is called "Bindoon Abandoned" but it's only abandoned by the RAAF (twas a WWII strip). If you do pop up it's a good idea to contact someone in SLACWA first (http://slacwa.org.au/wp/) Cheers, BF

If it was purely random then gee I wish that was my plane rego..I would dine out on that for years. Who owns Jabiru 24-4544 ?? (registered in 2006)

Just wondering if anyone else saw and said "WTF ??" (or similar) when watching the SBS (Perth) documentary called "Plane Crash" last night. It was about the experimental controlled crash of a Boeing 727, which American and British researchers were flying by radio control from a chase plane. The first chaser was a Cessna 337 and a tad too slow for the job. They illustrated the problems this caused with a computer simulation..in which the chase plane became a Jabiru 160 registered 24-4544 !! The only explanation I can think of is that whoever made the simulation delved at random into their library of "light aircraft" and came up with the Jab. Any other ideas ? The video can be seen on SBS on-demand at http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/31461955716/Plane-Crash until 24th June.

Ok so we are agreed we need to choose a plane where the wings can be quickly moved from under to over ? Wouldn't that be good ! I didn't test fly many aircraft - it gets too expensive - but certainly did so with the Foxbat. It's harder than one thinks to get a good impression from a short test flight I reckon. It felt odd in the FB at first because of the cut away dash leading to an off-centre appearance to the point of reference, throttle down by the rest position of the left arm etc. All that kind of thing goes away once you are familiar with it and if I had let it bother me I may not have bought the FB. Now both things feel natural and I love flying it. I had a short flight in an Alpi Pioneer (now called a "Hawk" I believe) and loved that too...high performance, handles beautifully, great visibility etc but it didn't meet some of my other criteria. It's that compromise thing...the Alpi would be great for touring and maybe, one day, when tired of the FB I may get one (hence the importance of resale value). By the way, the FB is genuine STOL like the Savannah etc..check out the YouTube video and search for Foxbat Short Take Off or something like that.

Hello Zoom, Just been through this myself and the process is almost as interesting as the outcome. I took a year to decide and talked, read, looked, researched quite a bit. Ultimately, it's a very personal choice and one should not entirely discount factors like "how good does it look eh ?" It's great to make a rational decision but a lot of my pleasure is just looking at my pride and joy (analogies with choice of a partner not intended but it has to be said there are strong similarities !). A few things that entered my mind along the way: Every aeroplane is a compromise in some respect - if you want to go fast you also land fast, with all that that means (and keep in mind that one landing that may not have been exactly planned). One aeroplane that is unusual in that it does tick both boxes is the wonderful carbon cub - but it costs $200 grand new..out of my range. Over typical bladder-range distance there is not much impact of going 90 kts vs. 100 kts in STILL air. It does make a difference if you are pushing against a 30 kt headwind. I chose an aeroplane that lands and takes-off in nothing but still goes 80 - 9o kts and a little faster if pushed when the wind is strong. Personally I prefer the visibility from a low wing aircraft because you are going where you are turning. However - hot hot hot and not so easy to get in and out of them for an old bloke with an old back...and definitely not so easy for one's partner when they dressed for the evening soiree you are flying to attend. I chose high wing but one with better than average visibility in all directions (even up) What's it made of ? Placcy like the Jabs is real easy to maintain and fix. Pity about the engine eh ? Durability of metal and deconite fabric seems very good if looked after. I chose a fabric and metal (and a little bit of composite) aeroplane after checking durability with owners and finding that they still looked very good even after mega-hours in flying school use. Also found several in use on stations where people are used to treating the plane like the truck. It looks well built and finished too..something you don't pick up in pictures. Engine: Did my RA training in Jabs and flew 5 different ones at different places over that time. I like them a lot but 4 out of those 5 Jabs had engine failures during or after my training period (fortunately none while I was in them...you were thinking it was something I did eh ?). Don't want to get into the arguments about that engine and I'm sure people have good experiences. The problem is that I may want to sell my baby one day and it won't be just my opinion that matters then - currently people are much happier with the Rotax than the Jab engine for sure. So better resale value and the lower probability of having to buy a new engine within 2-300 hrs wiped off any differential in price between the Jab and what I eventually bought (which has a Rotax 912 ULS). It uses 95 Mogas too... a lot cheaper than Avgas if not always so easy to get at airfields. Carrying capacity: Like you, I wanted to be able to carry full fuel (5 hours min) plus two adults plus minimum 20 kg baggage and preferably without having to worry too much about the C.G. The aircraft I chose does that no problem and has the MTOW of 600kg. Handling characteristics: Although I have a PPL I only have about 200 hours total and most of that many moons ago. Ultralights require slightly different skills too. What I'm saying is I am realistic about my skill level and how it will be for a while. So I wanted something easy to fly (but still fun) and especially with good and safe low speed handling for circumstance that might arise in a precautionary landing due to weather. Something we often forget too is handling on the ground - the Jabs don't turn all that tightly on the ground (especially the J230). High wing, as someone else has mentioned, means being able to taxi through farm gates (a big advantage if you have to put down in a paddock !) and better clearance of tree stumps, bushes, the odd sheep/kangaroo etc. Who I'm buying it from: I wanted new, not second hand, and factory built. This is partly for that warm fuzzy feeling one gets from knowing that the plane and you have shared the same experiences and partly because of re-sale value again. Factory built means it can be used in a school, so a bigger range of potential buyers and people familiar with the aeroplane already. For a new aeroplane, if you don't choose one of the locally built ones (and local in Oz may not be that local..I am in WA) that means imported. That in turn means you better have a local agent that has done it a lot before and people have spoken well of. Even better if there is a sales and maintenance facility for that particular aircraft in your home state. There is a mountain of paperwork and regs to be thought of so it's not a game for yer mate Bob in his back yard. Problems with imported aircraft not meeting regs has arisen lately with RA-Aus and has burnt some people. So ..for me it needed to be fairly mainstream and an aeroplane which is well represented in the local fleet..not too rare. So I bought an aeroplane of which there are 100+ on the Oz register, can be registered RA and VH and which is used by several flying schools. What about the hangar ? I share mine with another aircraft which is low wing..OK for a big wingspan high wing but wouldn't have worked if they were high wing too. My wingspan is 9.5 metres which is pretty big. It's OK but certainly something to think about. Cabin roominess: Coming from GA the first thing you notice when climbing into a J160 (for e.g.) is that you become quite friendly with the person in the other seat and often find yourself playing elbow tango. Some low wing aircraft with bubble canopies are also a bit squeezy and some don't have much in the way of roll over protection either. I chose an aircraft with a roomier than typical cockpit...just makes everything easier. Price. I had a budget (really I did..no really). For factory built and new it's roughly $80K up..and up...and up some more. I baulked at three figures (plus the three of the "K" of course). It turned out to be JUST possible to meet all of the above criteria within that limit. So enough suspense: I am the proud owner of an Aeroprakt A22LS Foxbat. I only have 12 hours on it so far but am very happy at this point. Negatives ? Well apart from the compromise aspects mentioned above (it doesn't go as fast as is sometimes suggested it does, although mine has the fat tundra tires to slow it down a bit), the only concern I had from the research was some reports of tearing in the undercarriage attachment skin and rear empennage stabiliser attachment fittings. I looked into those and found that they had been addressed by ADs with strengthening in the new models and also that the explanation of the cause appeared sensible. The numbers affected appear small and I have not heard of any problems with newer A22LS models (if anybody has ...please tell me !). So...there you go. The well known "buyer confirmation bias" probably still has me in it's grip - I'm sure a poll of people who just bought an aeroplane would find a high level of satisfaction, whatever beast it is. The Savannah has many of the characteristics of the FB at a lower price, but not quite as good visibility or range/performance (and they don't look nice to me but that's just my personal aesthetic filter). Have fun !

The JBAAG facebook site urges that concerned people contact the mayor of Shoalhaven (Joanna Gash) and councillors. I've taken them at their word just emailed them ([email protected]) to warn them that the supposedly open JBAAG forum on FB is nothing of the sort. Might I suggest that all subsequent comments on the FB forum be cc'd to the council email with the note "attempted to post on the JBAAG FB site" ? That would at least, reduce the credibility of this site in the eyes of the decision makers to zero.

Yep took about an hour to delete mine and all others that didn't fit their agenda. I will just keep posting, every hour "Warning: the owner of this supposedly open discussion site is routinely deleting any comment opposed to their agenda, no matter how reasoned and polite. What you see is not representative of the actual response (which has been overwhelmingly supportive of keeping existing arrangements at Jaspers Brush airport)". That will get me blocked soon - but if others pick it up and keep posting the number of people blocked will signal to FB that all is not as it seems...

Just posted this on their FB page - will be interesting to see how long it lasts. These kind of "action groups" are a serious threat not just to aviation but to our whole system of govt. They feed on fear, in the same way terrorism does, to intimidate decision makers and get their own way. There is only one antidote to it: public officials with courage, that more than any other attribute is what we should be looking for at election time - quiet, firm, reasoned courage. To FB: "Noise is a funny thing - how people perceive it depends on what they think is making it. Distant traffic noise sounds very similar to distant ocean noise. Imagine lying in bed listening to one then the other - how do you feel ? I'm sure aircraft engine noise genuinely irritates you but ask yourself honestly if it is because its noise or because its from an aircraft ? If the former - well you have no respite from lawn mower or car noise either. But you probably use both of those yourself huh ? If the latter, I suggest you go to the airfield have a joy flight or even better a trial instructional flight - you might like and will see that the people with a passion for Aviation are not selfish creeps bent on disturbing your peace. If that happens I guarantee your irritation at aircraft noise will miraculously disappear. I really hope so because the country needs aviation including basic training. If its really safety you are concerned about just ask your insurance company what's the likelihood of a plane crashing on top of you? Slipping and falling under your lawn mower is more likely.

Phil, I have a new Foxbat A22LS on the way from the Ukraine. It's been ordered with the central Y-stick by my preference but dual yokes are also licensed here and there is even a mod for all hand controls for wheelchair bound pilots. See www.foxbat.com.au. Throttle on the Y-stick version is on the door sill down by the pilots left hand. (see pic). I like this because the left arm is in a natural position. One does have to be a little careful when climbing in, however, to avoid becoming a gelding ! Although having learnt on Cessnas and Pipers etc I now prefer right hand stick left hand throttle (same configuration in the ubiquitous Jabirus). I will try to avoid "throwing my FB down two flights of concrete stairs" though some PAX of mine would say that is a good description of my average landing (ungrateful sods). The one in the pic has the Tundra tires, an option I have also selected.

Geez now you are stirring murky memories Phil. Not sure it's a great idea to make reference to who was bonking who (or is it whom ?) because, as this thread proves, many of the characters in your interesting narrative are still around - believe me the statute of limitations in such matters NEVER expires in the way things in civil law do (and, no, I was not involved personally in any such stuff - t'was completely oblivious in my youthfull naievette and utterly focussed on aeroplanes.) The gentleman of military bearing you refer to is probably Kevin Moore who was the CFI for a while and did my Nav flight test with me on 28th April 1979. A that time the test still required a landing within a primary control zone and mine was at Tullamarine. I vividly remember being followed down finals on 27 by a cargo DC-8, hanging on the edge of the stall with landing lights ablaze against the backdrop of black smoke from the 4 P and Ws., to stop from running up our rear while I flew as fast as I could before plonking half way down close to a taxiway and exiting. I then did a quick circle and came round behind an Air New Zealand DC-10 to follow him off after letting the wake turbulence settle. Ah...them were the days... I also recall that horrible, horrible accident at Essendon. I didn't remember about the trim failure but know it triggered a lot of discussion about the advisability of conducting single engine out training in light twins from places like Essendon with wall to wall houses near the upwind end of the strip. Mangalore is not too far away after all. Not long after I followed the same route in the Casey C172 VH-EJM which had some trouble with plug fouling and coughed a couple of times at 300' on climb out. Not pleasant. CFI at Casey following (?) Kevin Moore was John Hewatt and two younger instructors were my mate Bruce Hamilton and Stuart Barson. Mr. Squirrel signed my hours off when I transferred from Tyabb to Casey half way through my PPL. My last flight in DH-82 VH-TIG was an hour on May 19th 1979 - that must have been just before YOUR last fling in her :). The PA-28 was VH-CHR and the C182 had the pleasure of flying around central Oz in on the traditional post-licence getaway was VH-AHJ.

Dear mAgNeToDrOp, You think that's good ? You should see what the sleigh can do when Rudy and the boys have been on the special carrots ! Santa Ho Ho Ho P.S. will be around Bunbury early next year and would happily swap a ride in the FB for one in the P92

lark: Check out this vid for both crosswind and STOL performance...make sure to watch until the end. I guess it would have had minimum fuel. I know a Savannah can do this kind of thing too.

Early morning and evening are the only times it's pleasant, as opposed to "challenging" flying in summer in the Perth area. However...last winter and most winters in fact the flying weather was simply magnificent. Autumn also magnificent. Did I mention spring ? So get your bathers, togs, cozzie on for summer and do your flying out of summer or get up early. With those constraints there are far more good flying days here than in the Eastern states.

Others have warned me about the tundra tyres on bitumen etc. That will at least force me to learn how to do good crosswind landings every time. I think this can be a problem for those of us who fly most of the time from wide unsealed strips without that helpful dotted line down the middle to keep us honest.

Ahh .. just read your post again Phil and saw that TIG was damaged in that incident. Either my informant (instructor Bruce Hamilton) was downplaying it or it was an earlier less significant one - think it was your one though because it certainly went off-line after that. I dont have my log book with me right now but I will be able to pin the date down when I get home. Remember the train lines with overhead electrics not far from the upwind end of 30 ? Had to drag A PA28 with an under performing donk over those once and it still gives me shivers thinking about it.

Phil, Well that's amazing. I got my ppl at Casey Field in must have been 1978, having ridden my bike to there from Lyndhurst as a kid for many years before that. That's not the amazing bit though - many people learnt to fly with Keith Hatfields Group air. I always wanted to fly a Tiger Moth and not long after getting my licence I did an hour half in Keith's Tiger - great fun...until it was taken out of the hire pool because, I was told, "someone" had taxied it into a ditch and though there was no damage the owner was spooked. Now I know that someone was YOU !! 34 years I've been thinking about that ! No hard feelings though - it could just as easily have been me who found that ditch and might have been next time (I remember exactly where it is and I reckon you cut the corner a little where the gravel taxiway crossed the drainage culvert). I was sad to see Casey Field go - it had a long history of course having been private field of Lord Casey, former Australian Governor General, soldier and aviation enthusiast. I live in WA now but when feeling nostalgic I sometimes go on Google Earth and trace my boyhood ride along what were then country roads with packed lunch and water bottle to the threshold of Rnwy 30 where I sat for hours in judgement on the landings of others until I was old enough to try it myself. Cheers, BoxFat

Ok thanks that's useful to know that about the sprag clutch failures, not that I know WTF a sprag clutch is. I'll google it. I'm not running anything right now as the bat is still on a ship somewhere. Since I switched from GA to RA and began flying Jabs I have flown four individual J160s in different places and one J230. 4 out of 5 of those individual aircraft have had engine failures in the past 18 months, thankfully not when I was flying any off them (hmmm..what's the common factor here ? Maybe it's me causing it !)

Thanks for the warm welcome folks, and for the encouraging comments re the Foxbat. It's my first aeroplane and I did a lot of research but pilots quite naturally have their own biases (none of us are particularly objective judges once the aviation bug "bites") so it's hard to get much of an impression. I'd be interested to hear the thought process that others have gone (or are going through) in choosing a plane. For my part I wanted STOL performance to increase the number of places I could go intentionally and, if the worst happens, unintentionally and I was impressed with the build quality and practical thought that had gone into the design of the FB. Another factor was the support of the local agent which was very good. A Zenith or Savannah went across the radar but I wanted a factory built plane (I struggle with IKEA !). I've never seen that lime green colour FB but I note that is a UK registered version. The choices I had were white, yellow, blue, red and dayglo orange (ouch !). I got red...dunno why really. And the tundra tires.

Yes tis generally but unfortunately not the last few days - half the Indian Ocean has become airborne and is blowing through: loose objects are disappearing in the direction of New Zealand, hailstones like golf balls etc. I'm just waiting for locusts and frog showers now. Yes the FB is not cheap, despite the strong A$ against the Euro. They seem to hold their value well though, which was a sign to me that owners like them. Given the high failure rate of the Jab engines (oops..don't you sit behind one of those ?) the longer term costs would have been the same for a Jabiru I suspect. I did look at a couple of very nice Italian and German planes which have come down enormously in price due to the exchange rate but they weren't the kind of aircraft I want at this point - maybe next time around. The main worry right now is some disorder in our governing body (RA-Aus) which is currently unable to register new aircraft, though I'm told that will soon be resolved.

Wow 90 hours in the two weeks it wasn't raining ? You must have been tired ! Only joking. Having an identity crisis here sorry (aka log-in difficulties). Perth. Not the one down the road from you but the other one a bit further south :)

Initially White Gum Farm - the aircraft is still on the way from the Ukraine. I've been watching the shenanigans on the RA-Aus website but have been advised new registrations will be underway again soon.

G'Day. Just bought a brand new Foxbat A22LS. Now for some fun !