BoxFat

Late coming into the thread sorry. I own a Foxbat A22LS and have 75 hours on it now. I think most if not all of your technical/logistics questions have been answered SrPilot so I will just opine three things: 1. You have to see and fly one. I bought mine after a close look convinced me the build was super professional and the thinking gone into the design (not always obvious at first) - ditto 2. Agent support is critical to enjoying the experience with any imported aeroplane. I am lucky in that we have an excellent Australian agent/importer here in Peter Harlow (SilverWings in this forum) and also the local WA (Western Australia is a long way from the rest of Australia !) flying school and agent at White Gum Farm (Gordon Marshall). Both have been super supportive. 3. If you really can't find one to fly and are seriously thinking of spending the $$$ come out here for a holiday in sunny Perth (think "San Diego with kangaroos") and I will happily let you try mine. It's great fun. Finally, with few exceptions any owner will sing the praises of their current steed but more objective observers in this forum do generally speak favourably of the FB. The useful load is one key thing in my opinion..it enables a lot of stuff. Cheers BF

I think you hit the nail on the proverbial there BB320 with those comments. I have also been involved in RA for the last few years and it opens up so many possibilities for enjoying flying that just weren't there before. I watched the recent administrative ructions with some dismay because RA is what has made it possible for me to own and fly my own aeroplane - a Foxbat A22LS as it happens, which I also find great fun. This thread is about the "birth" of our aviation interests but for many of us it seems it's as much about "rebirth". Just posted my first video of flying the FB on YouTube: ( )

Tks yeah WA and we all know each other over here, in fact he's probably my uncle :) More seriously, yes, it will be at Albany and can communicate directly. Just asking in the forum when I think the answer might be of interest to others. Cheers AM

Ta much. I've had a look - sounds like fun (for me, anyway, maybe not for the poor instructor !) and has to improve all aspects of flying. I'll save my lunch money and see if I can't do it at the next BFR time. I am assuming it is always going to be in a school plane, not my own ?

I think Antoine de Saint-Exupery said it best when he said "I fly because it frees my mind from the tyranny of petty things". Someone on this forum has that as their tag line, I forget who it is just now. Saint Ex wrote not just some of the best ever stories about pioneering aviation but the best ever books full stop. My bestest, favouritest, most cherished book of all is his "Wind, Sand and Stars", a collection of stories of his days on the North Africa - South America mail run. Trust me, if you like reading, do not leave the planet without reading this book. It is incredibly poignant that Saint Ex himself left this existence mysteriously, somewhere over the Mediterranean, on a high altitude WWII recce flight in a P38 lightning, no trace ever found.

Poteroo: Can you explain what is involved in the low level instruction ? i.e. what exercises, how long does it typically take etc ? Tks, BF

Personal opinion: I thought it was a pretty silly premise - we can argue for ever about the cause of a crash yesterday with two black boxes in hand. Meaningless speculation for the most part in a cold case like this. Foggy dawn take off in an old, possibly overloaded plane (cryptic comment about the smuggled aboard beef...was it a whole cow ?). Plenty of risk factors there so no great mystery that a crash happened but specifics remain unknowable. If this is a series I would love to see them do it for the Lockheed (Electra ?..or was it a Hudson ? I forget) that crashed on approach to Fairbairn (named after defence minister Fairbairn among those killed in the crash) airbase in Canberra. The pilot (Hitchcock) was the son of RAAF pilot Hitchcock who died of thirst in the desert in the infamous "Coffee Royal" incident while searching for Kingsford Smith. It was a stall spin on after an overshot intercept to final at night. The story goes that Hitchock was a sub-standard skill pilot (training records) who would have been scrubbed but was waved through as a favour to his mother, widow of his father, by RAAF powers that be. If this is trues, it is a chilling case of one tragedy leading later to another...). Birdseye: My wife also has a penchant with murder and mayhem shows like CSI (insert city name here). I sleep with one eye open......

I have the standard "Tundra" tires too and I like them (except the fat nose wheel works like an anti-rudder making it hard to cruise in a straight line (well that's my excuse anyway). What sort of terrain are you planning to land on with bigger ones ? The FB is already not the fastest mode of transport...might be more like a hot air balloon with bigger tyres still. Hey..there's an idea...fill them with Helium and get more baggage in within the MTOW !

Hi Ian, The quote I got included the standard avionics and GST and it was still very good value. However, the A$ to Euro rate was very good value then - won't be as good now. One important factor in my choice was local support which was (and is) outstanding for the Foxbat from both Gordon and Peter. This really makes a difference to the whole experience of buying and running a plane. (I don't want to make invidious comparisons with another famous brand of RA aeroplane but you may draw your own conclusions). When I was looking there was no WA agent for the Alpi but now there is - Jim Rodgers based at Northam and Bindoon. Jim is also an instructor and an L2 and I'm sure could arrange a ride in an Alpi for you. It does get toasty under bubble canopies in WA and flying in high Summer is not really an option (but then turbulence makes it less pleasant in any plane ). Cheers BF

Have had the opportunity to do a few hours in a sportstar recently. Very nice, well balanced aeroplane. However, if I was buying a low wing ultralight in that class I would opt for an Alpi Pioneer 200 - significantly better performance with the same engine and was also quite a bit cheaper at the time I was looking. It handles beautifully too. I wanted a STOL, high wing so chose the Foxbat but I can tell you it was a near run thing after flying an Alpi !

Ah yes - the ergonomics ! I recall one embarassing time when first in a Jab out of Cessnas when, in a moment of information overload I found myself flying with arms crossed, left hand on the centre stick and right hand on the left panel mounted throttle ! I still recall the look on my instructors face..... Fortunately it's difficult to do that in the stick version Foxbat unless one is a candidate for circus employment :)

Hi Birdseye, We met at WGF last Friday and I must apologise I didn't immediately make the connection between you and your on-line persona ! I hestitate to say anything about "consistency of landings" in the Foxbat because (a) I certainly cannot provide any input that Gordon hasn't already (or will) provide (b) I'm not entirely sure what "consistent" means. I just did my plane registration renewal and noted that I had done 123 landings in the last year and I suppose I did 10 or so more with Gordon before I bought it. Consistent ??? Errr...no...probably not ! I haven't broken anything yet (but will apply the ruler to the landing gear legs after the delicate operation I observed at WGF) and I feel reasonably confident of making a safe, if not always elegant, arrival these days. Like you, I come from a GA background (but didn't have the benefit of gliders in between) and probably feel more comfortable with the firm and solid arrivals one gets with Cessnas, Pipers and Beeches (and Sons of Beeches ??). I do not really expect the level of consistency achievable in such planes to apply to the Foxbat, since it is much more a case of negotiating with the wind rather than pushing through it. I started on Jabirus when converting to RA and found much the same issues there (also Y or rather "U" stick) so I don't think it's peculiar to the Foxbat. For the first 10 or so hours in RA aircraft I felt like a complete doofus and like I had never learned to fly at all. One thing though - the unimpeded view forward and down in the Foxbat means that you see much more when arriving than you do in a GA plane (especially the C172s, 182s etc where the high panel blocks everything ahead after the flare). I have a sneaking suspicion that some of my nice GA arrivals, although they felt OK, wouldn't have looked nearly so nice if I could have seen so clearly where the ground was and how straight the aeroplane was tracking. By the way, if you haven't already done so, suggest you go to the Foxbat Australia website www.foxbat.com.au and look at some of the videos - there are some nice ones on short field landings, sideslip over obstacles etc. You will note from those too that there isn't much of a hold-off going on. They are filmed at Tyabb, which coincidentally is where I first went solo in a C150 also in 1978, and it's a narrow strip with a more or less permanent crosswind. It doesn't make sense to hold-off there..nose up sure but let the plane settle early and avoid the drift and that's how I do it a lot in the Foxbat now too. It also helps not to use flaps...it doesn't really need them and the behaviour is a bit more "Cessna-like" without them. 50 kts on short final is fine with no flaps and then get the power off and nose up and things happen quite sedately. So that's my perspective - would be interested to hear those of other Foxbat owners (if any are watching this thread ?). Cheers, AM

Yep - manoeuvring for photos at (reportedly) "mast height" over water - serious training required to do that safely. A hazardous operation even for highly trained and current pilots.

I think this gets to the nub of the problem: if CASA is going to ignore the advice of our best medicos, obtained by pilots clearly actively involved in managing their own health (and not just at the time of the exam), what's the point ? I do it now for reasons of health alone because I now have the uncomfortable feeling that the more info I provide the LESS likely it is my class 2 will remain valid. If this is the case it encourages avoidance behaviour and makes the average licenced pilot less healthy. I think this was one point Dr. Liddell made in the letter quoted at the start of this thread. Merry Christmas BF

Strewth Kyle ! Well I am glad you are still with us. That's the problem with Internet forums - just when you think you have something figured out, along comes the contrary example. I saw one of the best known cardiologists in my city and he not only told me but also told CASA that a normal stress ECG was significant and sufficient evidence that I was not in the above 1% risk category for an event in the next 12 months. Doing a bit of my own research not just on the web but in the medical literature (just because I am a nerd and do stuff like that) I learnt that the rate of false negatives was less than 20% for diagnosis of significant coronary artery disease, that being defined as 70% blockage or more across the arteries. So...either you are one of the 1 in 5 false negatives or the rate is higher than 1 in 5. I went ahead and got a heart risk scan (artery CAT scan) anyway as I am about to start exercising more but don't have the results yet. That will give ME peace of mind (until someone posts about that like yours about the stress test) but CASA Avmed peace of mind is satisfied by the stress ECG (I think). Cheers BF

Is your DAME happy to provide the referrals without visiting him/ her prior to the main exam or does it require two (at least) separate visits and fees ?

Yeah I believe it can be either bike or treadmill. Depends on the provider but the target heart rates are the same.

For clarification: burrowing down into CASA.gov.au /operations/individuals/medical certification/medical information for pilots/coronary risk index etc. says that the CRI is not routinely required for class 2 but can be on a case by case basis. If it is, then the rules for class 1 and 3 apply and these make it automatic after age 60. BF

If it stays with a sensible DAME, no, apparently not. But if for some reason it goes for CASA audit ONCE, then you have come to attention and the rules, IF they are applied consistently, would see you off to have a stress ECG. I had one impaired fasting tolerance sugar test some years ago (which was not repeated), that triggered a glucose tolerance test which showed minor impairment (not diabetes but a warning to watch it). That then triggered an exercise ECG requirement, then (despite that being fine) a cardiologists report etc etc. I don't smoke, weigh less than 80 kg and am otherwise healthy. Go figure.

Just been through the class 2 medical renewal and been forced to delve into the inner workings of the cardiac risk score, type 2 diabetes (incipient in my case) and the role of the exercise ECG stress test. It seem the goal is to keep the risk of an incapacitating CV event within the licence renewal period to under 1%. This is at any time during that period, not the risk while actually flying. As Yenn said, the cardiac risk score increases with age and by the time you are in your late 50s you can cross the 1% with only a minor increase in blood pressure (for example). At that point, and at any point after age 60, your class 2 will only be renewed for 12 months and may require other tests such as the exercise ECG. The good thing about the latter test is that it is a very reliable indicator of cardiac health and is about 80% successful in predicting no CV event within 12 months (hence the annual renewal required). Note that this independent of my blood sugar, which only has health relevance here in respect of the risk of a suddenly incapacitating cardiac event - it is not insulin dependent and so does not require micromanagement for me to be safe to fly. I have no problem with any of the above because if I can sit wired up on a bike every 12 months and thereby convince CASA and myself that my heart is good for another 12 months I'm happy to pay the ~ $350 to do it. I do have two issues with the current process though: 1. The 1% target applies equally to me flying 50 hours a year and Joe Bloggs flying 1000 hours a year. That doesn't make sense. My risk of a CV while flying is .05 of Joes risk but we both have to do the ECG stress test. I think there should some common sense applied here. And yes I suddenly might start flying 1000 hours a year (I wish !) but as in everything else I am responsible for my daily flight decisions between annual medicals, not CASA so this is no different 2. I cannot get specialist referrals without going to my DAME first so I have to anticipate what CASA will require, ask for those referrals, send in my DAME report, wait for CASA to say specialist reports are/are not needed, arrange appointments, send in specialist reports and wait to see if further tests are required by CASA. If so, I then may need to back to the DAME to get more referrals and repeat. At the end of this process, as it panned out this time, three months have passed, I have spent more than $1000 and my Class 2 certificate is issued - but valid from the date of the first DAME visit so due for renewal in 9 months ! So here are my suggestions to all Class 2 holders approaching 60: 1. Get your DAME to do a referral for an exercise ECG stress test regardless - it almost certainly will be needed 2. Go get it done and ask for digital copies of the report and ALL the charts to be emailed to you 3. Ask the DAME not to hit the button to send your report to CASA until you are ready to email them the ECG results. 4. Don't worry about cholesterol etc reports unless specifically requested by CASA - the exercise ECG should supersede the need for any other CV risk indicators. CASA does indicate what tests they require at next renewal but that doesn't help because they can and do require extra ones dependent on the results. Back to the DAME for more referrals... All of this is just my interpretation of the situation re the cardiac risk aspect and there maybe broader health matters of course. But in 9 months time I am going to attempt to save time and money by following steps 1 to 4. I should say that individual CASA Avmed staff were very helpful, they are just stuck in the same messy process as I am. Cheers BF

Despite the number of experienced Jab operators on here (and I am NOT among them) nobody seems to have answered this question, which is odd. Or maybe I missed it ? When learning in Jabs I was told that the spring set up between the carbies and the two throttles meant that the right hand side throttle, on being brought to idle, resulted in lower revs than the pilot side one. Simply leaning over and pulling the right side throttle back to the stops prevented the inelegant shutdown of which you speak

Ok cool. Well when you get finished over there please come up to Bindoon some time and we can have a compare notes session in my FB. Re the flare and hold off be prepared for the opposite effects first time you fly a heavier aeroplane again. Flare too late and the extra momentum carries you further through the round out and into the pavement rather harder than desired. I did this last time when doing my ppl BFR in a C172 and both the aeroplane and I made an audible "ooff" sound. Right now I'm going for the whiskey bottle hard in an effort to get the image of "Gordon rolling around in orgasm" out of my head. Aaaargggh

I have to wonder what happened to the ingrained habits in a case like the one which you relate with the Baron Poteroo. More specifically, that last check of "things that could kill me" just before lining up or opening the throttle e.g. Controls full and free, fuel on, trim set, engine instruments in the green canopy locked. Easy to miss something in a rush or when distracted during the prep, less so in that last quiet moment before "go". I wonder if the pax or radio was jabbering just then ? With short term memory getting poorer with age (as it almost invariably does) I'm doing two things to try and keep myself safe in that phase of flight (a) back to printed checklists (b) putting a last item on the pre-take off list which is"clear the mind and wait 10 seconds, no matter what" before launching. On several occasions that has given my subconscious a chance to get a word in about something it has been screaming about for the last 5 mins without being heard. It can spook the pax if one closes the eyes and gives all zen Buddhist like but it's worth it. Cheers BF

Welcome Birdseye. You made a good choice going to Gordon at WGF, albeit at not the easiest time of the year due to the heat and turbulence. He runs a slick operation and has just the right combination of rigour and common sense as an instructor in my opinion. Best way to get some smooth air flying in is to take a few days off and stay overnight in one of the cabins. That way you can fly near first and last light (which is beautiful anyway) and not have to dodge the kamikaze roos on the drive from Perth. The Foxbat is a good place to start for a converting GA pilot too (I will declare an interest as I liked it so much I bought one from Gordon, it's now based at Bindoon). There are real differences between UL and GA flying and I like aspects of both. The Foxbat sits squarely in the middle of the spectrum - I can fly it in and out of Jandakot on my PPL and it just feels like a more fun version of a Cessna. Then I can fly it in and out of a paddock strip (mine has the tundra tires) with trees around it with complete confidence due to the benign low speed handling. I have not flown a yoke version so can't really compare but personally I like the centre Y stick and sill mounted throttle. The latter means my arm rests in a natural position and it also keeps the left cut away panel vision down and ahead clear. There are few aircraft that give you that helicopter like view when landing. It does take some getting used to though, in terms of finding the reference point over the nose. Need to be active with the feet too - not sure if the WGF FBs are wearing the tundra tires now but the fat nose wheel acts as a counter rudder so it doesn't return to central so easily. Even after 70 hours I still have to pay attention to this in the cruise to keep tracking straight. Near the ground not a problem as it is more obvious from the view outside if not. Overall, a great journey you have embarked (re-embarked) on and I hope you get as much satisfaction from it as I have. I am enjoying flying more now than I did when a young fella - then I had to be the best pilot ever or nothing, now I am more realistic and easier on myself so more fun and prob learn faster too. Cheers BF

It may seem odd but I do support them PROPOSING the action suggested but would only support their IMPLEMENTING it if/when (a) an appropriate consultation period has elapsed (b) stronger supporting evidence is provided and © in the event of no constructive engagement/action being initiated by Jabiru in the interim. I make the distinction because from the experience of Jab operators I know (and the more considered of the comments here) I doubt that anything much would have happened if CASA had not put out the proposal. Now..which one of the boxes does this mean I should tick.. two ? three ? two and a half ??