Munger

Wear and tear on roads: one of my favorite soap boxes! 😀 During my civil engineering studies, we had to design a road pavement...my favorite part: Design is based on number of expected average truck axles going over it (very simplified), not car movements. We were told that a B-double does 40k times more damage to road when compared to a pax vehicle. Another thing they told us was that if you don't use a road, it degrades quicker than if you use it as intended. The movement of traffic 'massages' the pavement and helps prevent deterioration...so we could argue that light traffic of little bug smashers will save the airport owner money and they should pay us for using the runway! 😀 Very good points, thank you for sharing your ideas. I do think that we have just had this 'user pays' mentality drilled into us from every angle to the point that we don't question that mantra anymore....

What about the idea of having a 'daily landing fee'? Anyone had any experience with that?

Really? We had the rescue helicopter move to the airport and have a landing pad up on the hospital roof...

Thank you for taking the time and posing that reply. I will share this with the Lismore Airport Users Group (https://groups.google.com/g/ylisug) and we will have to start doing some footwork! There is actually an existing noise profile map for the airport, would probably be a great idea to verify it with actual measurements. The 'touch and go' is a term that was picked up by our main opponent among the councilors (Edwina Lloyd - scary!).

If I would not have sat in on the briefing and seen the councilors in action, I would totally agree with you. Logic and reason is out the window with this crowd.

Well, we have been to a councilor briefing before a closed session on fees and we got this response from one from the councilors 'on our side': "I think you got some sense of the views of a couple of councillors with the questions asked of you and the other speakers. There is much empathy with the residents affected by the noise of the touch and go and circuit training and I believe some want the airport closed as aviation is a significant user of fossil fuels. Staff presented an assessment of the effects of the increased fees on yourself and some other (deidentified) users. While we disagree with you on the extent of the increased cost to your business, we all agree that it is a significant rise." ...to break it down: Izaac presented a spreadsheet with the inclusion of the new costs for his business and the councilors told him that he doesn't know what he is talking about....BUT the one out of the blue for us, was the closure of the airport due to aviation being a 'significant fossil fuels' user! That is a new one I have not come across in my 30years of aviation addiction! Anyone else come up against something like this?

YEAH! I can tell you where it came from: Years ago, when Ballina council did their brilliant marketing move and called themselves: "THE gateway to Byron Bay", the LCC tourist manager countered with an equally brilliant move: "Lismore, the gateway to Nimbin"... ...fast forward a decade: due to too much pink smoke in the area, 'tourist' became 'terrorist' 🤪

..we better delete this line! It will give the money vultures a new idea.... Thank you Jerry for sharing your experience. Skippiestan is (in my experience) 5 to 10 years behind the rest of the world in adopting bad ideas. In regards to private airfields, that is already stitched up: In our area, only 2 movements per day are allowed without a DA, and you will never pass one of those within 10NM of an Airport..... The camping idea is actually doable here in YLIS (physically): we now have public toilets and we do have some nice grass parking on the flood mount. Bet the fact that we have RPT, chain-mesh fence and ASIC requirement will kill that idea (even thought the commercial terminal is at the other end of the strip). Keep the ideas coming!

...something that we have been asking for at least 20 years...and proper all weather taxiway and an all weather ramp for the flood parking....and, and, and....the reason this has gone ahead is because we finally have an 'Airport Coordinator' (who has done a great job so far).... From what I have been reading in this thread, there is two camps (please correct me if I am wrong): 1) Bugger off, we already pay through the nose for everything, 2) OK, I will contribute something to say thank you. So what is a reasonable amount to contribute without feeling that we have been raped? Me personally, I think $5 to $6 for a full stop in a UL is not too unreasonable and the $1.76 for a touch and go is a joke.... Ramp parking $50 per week at tie downs or $135 per night at lit apron......yeah, nah. (personal opinion). For that matter, should you be paying landing fees at your home port, when you are a rate payer there (that includes ppl paying for regular storage in a hangar)?

I think you are right, and we do have JETA1 here at YLIS for these services... ...and then, when you thought sanity may prevail, our Councilor Elly Bird wanted to charge the Westpac Rescue helicopter a landing fees for dropping patients off on the roof top landing pad of our Hospital...(I wish I has kidding!!!) With this survey, I really want to get an idea of what recreational pilots think is a fair price. From what I have seen so far, airport fees are just plucked out of thin air, because 'they are similar airport, so we can charge the same', rather than some actual analysis...

I like that back of the envelope calculation! Might see if I can use that 🙂

Thank you for the input. I have never heard of this before and will certainly chase it up as an avenue!

There is a few aviators here that remember this happening. Is anyone out there with more detail on this? Dates or legislation's?

You have hit the nail on the head...and with your later assumption, you are on the mark again: this has been going on for more than 15years, when council took back control of the airfield from a successful commercial administrator who was looking after it. It has been a string of disasters driven by incompetent managers and let's not talk about the politics..... We would love to get our hands on a budget, but the council is claiming commercial confidentiality. The community at large here are so fed up with what they are doing, that numerous attempts have been made (even by councilors) to get the Minister for Local Government involved and appoint an administrator (effectively sacking the council). And yes, there is talk of having an Airport Master Plan, so thanks for the heads up on that one! The 800k tag we think is utter BS. I would conservatively estimate that the Airport cost $350K p.a to operate with all the inefficiencies that they have in place. The same manager runs our rubbish tip, the cemetery, the quarry and the airport...yep, all at a loss! (I am sure you are getting the picture) Without writing a War & Peace novel about it, I think all I can do is focus on a little part of the overall problem: YLIS. I always believe in presenting solutions to problems, so the question is: what are some of the successful solutions other airfields/airports have implemented? One thing for and against YLIS is that it is located in a flood causeway, so you can't really use it for anything else other than existing use.

That is some interesting thoughts in regards to mogas...so we should ask either tax free mogas or have a percentage of the fuel excise being spend on airfields (out of interest: isn't there a case that the fuel excise is not actually spend on roads?) So what about the council rate payers that actually are pilots too?

Morning All, Due to our issues at Lismore (YLIS), and a statement made by the Manager of Commercial services that landing fees are market-based, it has lead me to some questions that I would like to throw out there: 1) How are airport fees calculated? The obvious answer would be: Cost to run the airport - other income / number of landings....but that does not work out in the real world due to variability of traffic (e.g.: Covid). 2) Are councils actually calculating what airport fees should be or just simply 'what ever we have * maximum increase we can do'? 3) Most importantly: What do you thing is a reasonable landing fee from $0 to $15 (per tonne, one tonne minimum)? Have a great day!

If you listened to the segment on ABC Radio you may have noticed that things don't quite add up. Here is Izaac's response to Mr. Wing (Manager of Commercial Services at the LCC): Good morning Bronwyn, I am issuing the following response to the comments made by Ashley Wing, Manager of Commercial Services at Lismore City Council, on ABC Radio on 22/7/21. His comments were absurdly inaccurate and more worryingly, clearly indicate that he doesn’t even understand the issues around the asset and business (ie. the Lismore Regional Airport) that he is supposed to be in charge of managing. It is not surprising now that Councillors are making flawed decisions to support these types of changes if they are receiving advice from their managers that is grossly inaccurate and misleading. Firstly, I was previously advised that the Lismore Airport fee structure change was implemented to reduce a budget deficit, not as a “return to market-based pricing”. From our perspective, the pricing has always been in line with the market, and has now moved grossly away from that market. That is plainly obvious if you review the previous Lismore City Council Fees & Charges documents and compare the landing fee structure as it did exist prior to 1/7/21 and then compare it with the structures that are published online by other airport operators such as Ballina Shire Council, Richmond Valley Council, Southern Downs Regional Council and Port Macquarie-Hastings Council, amongst many others. And interestingly, despite weeks of communication with the Mayor and other managers at the Council, including Ashley Wing, this is the first time I have heard market-based pricing mentioned as a justification. I was clearly advised, including in writing, that the change was made to reduce a budget deficit. As a customer of the airport, it astounds me that this would be given as a justification for the change - if you were moving to market-based pricing, wouldn’t you consult with and negotiate with your market, especially your current customers, before implementing a completely different price structure, one that will increase costs to one of your biggest customers by thousands of percent per annum? And wouldn’t you continue to offer a product that is in line with the majority of the regional airport market i.e. by offering an annual landing fee option to attract and retain operators to base themselves at the airport? If they are really interested in market-based pricing, I challenge Council to back this up by coming to the table, which they haven’t done at all yet, negotiating with their market, and offering a landing fee structure that matches or betters the offers available at Ballina, Casino, Coffs Harbour, Warwick, Port Macquarie and many regional airports that offer annual landing fee options to local operators. Secondly, Ashley stated that Council was moving to a user pays system. This is grossly misleading as it has always been a user pays arrangement at Lismore, or at least for as long as we have been based there. Aircraft operators were always given the option of either paying on a per landing basis, or an annual fee for unlimited landings. It is absolutely absurd to say that Council was undercharging users by quite a lot for quite a while – the fee structure as it stood prior to 1/7/21 was in line with most other regional airports, or at least those that have flying schools and commercial operations based at these locations. This is plainly obvious if you compare the previous Lismore City Council Fees & Charges document with those published by other councils that own and operate airports. The issue that has arisen here is the structure of this user pays system, which has now moved away from the rest of the regional airport market, and the potential amount by which the user cost (particularly to our company) will increase due to this structural change. Although the audio was difficult to hear, I think Ashley also claimed that users would now pay a reduced amount per landing. As clearly indicated in the Lismore City Council Fees & Charges document for 2021/22, the per landing cost at Lismore has actually increased from $11.60 per tonne in 2020/21 to $12.30 per tonne in 2021/22, that is a 6% increase, not a reduction!! For comparison, at Ballina, the per landing cost per tonne is $12.00. But much more importantly, Ballina offer an annual landing fee option to support businesses to base themselves at the airport. Thirdly, I note that Ashley commented that Council had used historical data to model the impact on operators, and that they didn’t necessarily agree with my numbers. It is undeniable that the impact of my landing fee costs at Lismore is in the order of multiples of tens, not double or triple, but multiples of tens. I have taken our Lismore landing data at Lismore for the last 3 months and analysed the costs that my company would have been charged under this new structure, and despite the impacts of a greatly depressed aviation training market in the setting of COVID and the impact of postponements of training courses due to lockdowns and border closures, and despite having aircraft out of action for prolonged periods due to periods of atypical heavy maintenance, we would have paid around 20 times more for our landings at Lismore on a per annum basis over this period. Unlike Council who are looking backwards for their modelling, I am also looking forward to a time when our market returns to a post COVD norm, when this impact will be much greater. I will also note that we have already received widespread response and support from the wider general aviation industry, and unfortunately this change of fee structure, and the manner by which it has been introduced, has already inflicted significant damage to the reputation of the airport as a location to conduct aviation businesses, and may already have devalued the airport as a commercial asset. As far as we are concerned, this matter is far from over. Firstly, we look forward to a time when Council actually has an understanding of the asset and business they are managing, and the impact of the decisions they are making, and secondly, we look forward to Council backing up its comments by actually participating in sensible market-based negotiation. I also urge all of the candidates for the upcoming local government elections to seek their own advice on this matter, as it is clear from the response given by Ashley that the advice from Council managers is flawed. I also urge them indicate their positions on this issue prior to the election, and for the new council to introduce and pass a motion at their first meeting to rescind these fee structure changes and then repeat the process of restructuring the airport fees using a more appropriate and equitable market-based approach. I hope this occurs before the airport loses its biggest customer, and many others. Kind regards, Izaac Flanagan

Is there a contact person that I can give our airport coordinator so we can maybe get a dialogue going and bring some new ideas to the airfield?

Morning, Quick addendum: its $12.30 per landing, not $12.40 - sorry! Thank you for your input and pmccarthy for sharing your experience. The airport is council owned and operated. We have approached them at regular intervals over the last decade to allow local aviator participation in the upkeep and decision making of the airfield, something which was successfully done in the 80's and 90's by an aerodrome committee (which was disbanded by the council). All request have been turned down and it was not until recently that an Airport Coordinator was appointed to start addressing the long list of issues which have accumulated due to inaction over the last 15 years. One of the reasons we are angry about this change in the fee structure is the fact that local aviator philanthropy has been keeping the GA side of the airport in reasonable shape: mowed the roadways, graded the roads, swept the tarmac, killed the weeds, deal with noise complaints, provide security...you know, all that little stuff that rates and landing fees should cover. But now that we have an airport coordinator and the only airline left has pulled out, we cop it (after years of warning them).....so that is the emotional attachment to the subject or landing fees and the removal of annual passes for locals. But let's not start on the financial ineptitude of the LCC (there is a reason why we are #2 in NSW in terms of outstanding road repairs). In terms of aircraft noise: We try not to annoy people and as long as it is safe for us to do so; we avoid know hot spots. As much as I don't mind the roar of a well tuned engine, I will be the first to agree it shouldn't be at 3am on a Saturday morning (used to work at Sydney International). Personally, I have always put intake and exhaust silencers on my 'lawn mover engine' in the Drifter and ask others to do the same. Hey, I got exposed to Albion Park noise politics in the 00's when I was learning to fly trikes there....very sensitive. I guess that may be a case of confirmation bias for me. But this new group of Anti-aircraft noise ppl is something I have not experienced and I think it has something to do with Covid and more people staying at home. Irrationality seems to run wild here in Lismore at the moment. Thank you again for your input!

Here is the link to the ABC radio interview with Izaac. The LCC spokes persons response left me speechless, especially considering that one of our Foxbat pilots here, who flies twice a week had a bill of over $1000 for the year, because nobody told him about the annual landing fee pass! Head to this link: Breakfast - Breakfast - ABC Radio Then scroll through to approximately the 46:30 mark (which equals about 7:20am this morning) you will hear your interview, followed by the Council spokesman.

Just a quick clarification: We have two issues here... 1) The (green) councilors have voted a budget in that changed the fee structure of Lismore Airport (now $12.40 per landing) and removed an annual landing pass. This is what has driven Izaac's costs up by 3000% 2) We have an 'Reduce Aircraft Noise Over Lismore And Surrounding Areas' group, started during Covid by a retired school teacher who moved here from Sydney about a year ago. The first one is typical Lismore: Yes, we want your business, no we won't help you: Now pay up! As long as we have financially inept counselors (last 25 years), we are never going to shake this... The second is a bit more problematic in the long run: There is a professional people exodus from Lismore to Ballina. Hey, in the 90's we used to fly from Lismore to Ballina to get some quiet circuit time, now they come to Lismore because it's so busy over there. This has given rise to the Judith's in our community and some (IMHO) very irrational world views. You know the people I mean: 'You can't train pilots, but I expect the Air Ambulance to take me to Sydney when I need it'.

Thank you all for your input. I have to say, that since my first say of flying more than 30 years ago, I have always had someone that complained about it (even when flying silent paragliders!) I think it is important that we start to take notice of just how powerful the single 'nutjob' with an internet connection can be: I think one of the problems is that we aviation enthusiasts have busy lives and more important things to do, so by default, the complainers get to run a muck. What would be a utopian dream is a legislation such as the primary producers have recently achieved, whereby you can not complain about the activities carried out when they have been established before you develop/reside there. Please keep the discussion going: It may help us and others in the future!

Thank you!

Thanks! I should have html'ed my link.

Thank you for the heads up. We will dive into it a bit deeper now that the issue has blown up. While I tend to agree that a few FB posts in conjunction with a poorly supported petition should not make a difference, we have to consider that this one person has managed to influence our green counselors here. This coupled with the incompetent management of the LGA has slowly destroyed this airfield. It would be an expansive story starting in the 80's if I covered it all and who has time to read all of that! 🙂 If anyone else has some experience on a similar matter, I (and we at the Lismore Airport Users Group) would really appreciate your input.