BirdDog

Because Neil, if, as you say "when the sheet hits the fan" the lawyers will have a field day. Why is it so hard to ask for decent regulation to be written. As I have asked earlier, what defines the take off point? If you read back through the thread, my aircraft can be between 2 ADs. So how long does it have to be on the ground at AD2 before it becomes, as you call it, "the take off point"? 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week?? How long! See the ambiguity. And as I am now no longer a student, it can't be the "training AD", because I own the aircraft, and I am no longer a student of the club. So, let me ask you this Neil, Example 1 I take off today from AD1 (Where my plane was for the last week) and I land 20nm away at AD2. It stays there for 1 night. The next morning I get up - Where is my 25nm boundary now? Example 2 I take off today from AD1 (Where my plane was for the last week) and I land 20nm away at AD2. It stays there for 5 nights. I go up again - Where is my 25nm boundary now? See my point! Now... it get's even uglier, because there is another AD less than 25nm from AD2. SO... If I decide to leave my plane at AD2 for say a month, I then go to AD3. Then... There is another AD less than 25 from that, so how long does the plane have to stay at AD3? You see what I mean. The regulations don't account for the instance where the pilot does not leave his aircraft at 1AD, and does not account for an AD being within that 25nm. If it clearly stated that landing at another AD was not allowed, we would not be having this discussion. And in case you are wondering, yes I am serious when I say it lives between 2 ADs. They are not they far apart and a bunch of us have planes, so we fly all over the place.

Yeah man, of course they do. I still think 25nm is far enough.

Wow! I go away for a few days, and come back to pages to read! :) Awesome discussion though, and is always good. Fingers crossed Saturday week I will have my XCountry endo. Whoo hoo! A couple of things I will add.... I don't care who you are, the way those regs (and plenty of other CASA regs) have been written - is crap! Pure crap, and can easily be done better. That said, I personally think 25nm is way enough! Where I fly, in less than 20nm in one direction puts me on the other side of hills with absolutely no clear visibility of where the home AD is. Thankfully there is a dirty big ocean on one side that will help with that! :) However, fly at a mates home AD that is less than 1 hour flight away inland, and everything looks the same, with no easy identifier as to where the AD is. So I get the whole argument for Nav. It's the very reason why I am getting mine, and always had the intention to get it. Heck, I did most of my training flying my plane home across the country with my instructor beside me. But what this thread has shown is the regs are still, to this day, poorly written. What that does is (as it has done in my industry) is caused confusion amongst pilots. It causes heated discussions where opinions conflict, and it's not good. Why could it not just be written better like... You must not fly more than 25nm from the airport you took off from. You must return to the the airport you took of from without landing at another airport. SOLVED! But no... The same thing has been happening for years. The regulators write a rule. The lawyers rewrite it. The regulators rewrite it again, and the lawyers have another go, and before you know it, the Chinese Whispers like process means what spits out the other side carries much ambiguity. I am not saying we scrap the 25nm. It's plenty far. Just make sure it's written properly. It's not that hard! Sheesh! But anyways... Like I said... I like a healthy discussion, if it brings awareness to the next pilot that has just gone solo that he must stay 25nm from his AD - Then good! :) Maybe we saved him from getting lost on his next flight. Cheers J

Thanks Turbo. Was talking with my instructor about this today. I tend to agree with your way of thinking, only, where I flew with my instructor really has no bearing on where I can fly. For example... If I get you to fly my plane to somewhere in WA, then I am quite entitled to get myself to that AD, and fly it within 25nm of that AD, having never flown there before. I just find it increasingly interesting how a simple yet fundamental part of our rule set is also still a bit grey. I have been working within Civil Aviation for nearly 12 years, and was hoping RAA might be a little different, but it seems not. What is interesting is, as soon as someone pipes up with a view, many are quick to jump on you - when we are simply just discussing a topic. It seems like it's taboo! Is it that bad to have a discussion, or should I just shut up and tow the line.

Interesting how we think we know the rules. Having dealt with casa regulation for 12 years, nothing surprises me anymore.

Plus... why would the RAA Ops manual even mention consecutive flights. So let's get that straight. Landing is not a problem.

Well no. I have already asked casa re landing at another AD and the answer was as long as 25nm.

No. There is nothing stopping you landing at another AD. As long as it's within 25nm.

Thanks, but it still does not answer my question - My aircraft lives between 2 airfields! What happens in that instance? They are 20nm apart. In fact, I have 4 airfields within 25nm. I am sure there are many other pilots who have 2 strips in close proximity. What would happen in that case? So... without sounding stupid... Let's say my plane is at AD1 today, and I fly it to AD2 where I leave it overnight. Tomorrow I go back and go for a fly. Where is my 25nm boundary now? It's a reasonable question. Oh.. and the regs don't state anything about landing. They just state not more than 25nm from the departing airfield. They don't even mention anything about consecutive flights. Which is no surprise really.

Yep! I am glad that I have done my Nav training. It teaches you a whole lot more than you think. :) Back to the 25nm though... and this is a legitimate question from my PPL buddy. What is the originating AD? My plane is 19nm from another AD, and at times it lives it's life between these 2 ADs. Sometimes it's at one for weeks at a time, and then other times it can live at the other for weeks at a time. So where does my 25nm start and end? I am not being silly, and I don't really care, in 2 weeks I will have my endorsement - but it's a good question right! Today it might be at AD 1, but then tomorrow, I might leave it at AD2.

ahah! I am booked in for my test in 2 weeks. But it's very interesting when you read it!

Oh... And I just looked up the RPL data on the CASA site and it states... flying no more than 25nm from the aerodrome where the flight began, the designated training area, or a direct route between the two Interesting!

Now, I know this has been done to death, but this has myself and a mate puzzled, and it goes like this.... So my buddy (PPL Holder) asks how my flying is going etc etc, and we got to discussing 25nm restriction without X-Country and he says... "Hmm can you land 20nm away and then go another 20nm?" I say no, and him being like he is says... "Let's look it up!" So we jump on the RAA website and check out the ops manual and we find the following; CROSS COUNTRY ENDORSEMENT (X) In order to act as pilot in command of a recreational aeroplane at a distance greater than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure a Pilot Certificate holder must hold a RAAus Cross Country (X) Endorsement. Note: Consecutive flights of 25 nautical miles do not comply with this requirement. Now, this got us into a heavy discussion, and as neither of us are legal experts, we called another buddy who is... sent him that clause and asked for what he thought it meant. Here's what he said... "You need to break it down, so lets do that.... That clause says to me that in order to travel greater than 25nm, you are required to hold a Cross Country Endorsement. Then the note says.... Consecutive flights of 25nm don't comply with this requirement, and therefor don't need the cross country endorsement. If what you are asking is, can you fly multiple legs to travel 50nm, my interpretation is yes" That left my original buddy gloating... so I am putting out there to you guys for comment. I was trained, and always had the understanding that you can't hop. BUT.... As my buddy said... "If you land 20nm away, how long do you have to stay there for before it becomes the original point of departure?" He has a point!! Let's discuss! Cheers J

Yep. Thanks. I already have that in motion. A few of us in here should do the same. :)

Ok.. I thought I was pretty clear - RESTRICTED - NOT CTR. The CTR was in fact recently removed. It is now R421A. No point calling the tower - the dude in the tower can't overrule a CASA Regulation or an RAA requirement. So he or she could very well say... yeah.. go fly mate, squark 4265!! But that does not mean legally I am allowed to fly there. I knew this thread would end up like it has, because I have already had the same discussions with local pilots that I know. Everyone seems to have a different answer. LOL! The worrying thing is - we should ALL know this inside out - and I don't, along with many others - and that's a worry.

SO.... The question remains.... Can an RAA pilot legally fly into Restricted Airspace (with the approval of the controlling Authority) if his Aircraft meets the requirements? Who would have though this question would be so hard to answer. ;)

Thanks Turbo - But don't you find that concerning? That we have RAA pilots getting the tick every weekend, yet this thread can't seem to nut down the information that is VITAL to our safety. To me - that's a big problem.

Ok... So... This thread has had the desired result! It's not just me that finds it difficult to get clear information about our requirements as an RAA pilot. For those wanting to know why, my home AD sits smack bang in the middle of an RA1 Military Restricted Airspace. NOT a control zone! They recently removed it. It's now RA1 Restricted. So yes, I am trying to get 100% clarity of when I can and can't fly. My aircraft indeed flies in this airspace, as all of my training was done while the airspace was active. So the question for me is not is the aircraft allowed in ( that I know - I have the transponder etc etc) it's more, me as a pilot. FYI - The airspace generally switches off on the weekend. It's very clear from the responses in this thread that, just like other areas of aviation, the information for an RAA pilot is also confusing and difficult to find. Now... Given the amount of Restricted Airspace around the country, you would think a simple page on the RAA website explaining it in clear english would be a simple solution! But yet - no - we have to dive in to the very confusing world of legal documentation. So I look at it this way.... What is the first question people ask me when I tell them I am an RAA Pilot? Want to know? The question I get is - "where are you allowed to fly?" So why the heck is there not a page easily grabbed in the RAA site that steps that out in plane english? I would have thought that is one of the most important questions we should have the answers to. And not just the obvious C and D etc. But PRD, ADIZ etc etc. Another reason this came up is because recently an RAA registered aircraft recently wandered into controlled airspace, so it kicked the discussion along, which led to me seeking complete clarification on the airspace at my home AD. Anyways... My fear was realised... the info for RAA pilots is just as cumbersome as the rest of the CASA information. Thanks for the discussion lads.

So some have just stumbled into my dilemma. "Treated as" is my point. I have very good experience with casa regs and laws (I'm in aviation) so hence my head scratcher on this one. It's very easy to say "you will need CTA endorsement " but what I'm looking for is where that actually is stated. There are so many example of people thinking they "know" a regulation, but have never seen nor have any knowledgeable of where to it stated. It's just what they have been told / trained. I find it strange that all of the RAA documents I'm looking through, none mention Restricted - unless I've missed it. So if someone knows where it's actually stated - in any data - that's what I'm looking for. I guess we should all know where to find this info if we are to be responsible RAA pilots. Surely it's in our best interest to know the info, not just hear it from some guy at the pub. ;) Cheers J

Hello Gents, I am wondering if someone can point me in the right direction. It is my understanding that to enter a CTR (military or otherwise) you would need CTA endorsement. However, can someone tell me what the requirement is for restricted? I understand approval is required from said millitary, I get that, but is a CTA endorsement required for millitary restricted airspace for an RAA pilot, and if so, where is that actually stated? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I am getting conflicting information, so I am trying to find the factual documentation. Cheers J

I just watched a news report that had video, and it appears there is very little forward momentum. No scrape marks on the ground at all. I hate seeing things like this. :( Just awful.

Yeah man! It's ugly here today too, or I would be flying. :(

Yeah NAIPS was down for a bit, then came back online. :)

Very sad. :( If you look at the pics (some show you a good span of the area) there are indicators that the plane had little forward momentum. Possibly in a flat spin. If it was spinning, not uncommon for the fan to stop during the spin. In any case, very sad indeed. :( My thoughts are with the families.

Ahh! Mine is hard wired into the plane.