old man emu Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 If I hold a Radio Operator's licence from when I had a PPL, and the plane I am flying is equiped with a radio with the appropriate frequencies, can I fly that plane in Class D airspace if I have an RAA certificate and the plane is RAA registered? Old Man Emu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 If I hold a Radio Operator's licence from when I had a PPL, and the plane I am flying is equiped with a radio with the appropriate frequencies, can I fly that plane in Class D airspace if I have an RAA certificate and the plane is RAA registered?Old Man Emu short and sweet No. Longer answer. RAA allows acces to Class G and in some circumstances (ALT and Aircraft equipment fit determined) class E airspace only. Class D and above requires a PPL or better with a CTA endorsment Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 short and sweet No.Longer answer. RAA allows acces to Class G and in some circumstances (ALT and Aircraft equipment fit determined) class E airspace only. Class D and above requires a PPL or better with a CTA endorsment Andy But, to fly an RAA plane into CTA you need the appropriate RAA tickets and endorsements for the plane and journey in addition to the GA logbook entries permitting access to the CTA. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 OK. Thanks. Not very conducive to the advancement of aviation is it? OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 OK. Thanks.Not very conducive to the advancement of aviation is it? OME Oh I dont know, Class G and E probably account for 99% of the total airspace in Australia, and in reality just prevent us mixing it up with the avtur burners. As others have said if that last 1% is important to you then get back on the PPL or better bandwagon. To me those areas have less recreation and more stress associated with them than I personally care for, and despite being a parent I truely dont have eyes in the back of my head to look out for a machine that in landing config is still faster than my beast is flat out.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 Here's the irony .I've just arrived at work at Camden Airport. It's 7.00am. The control tower doesn't start until 8.00am. Therefore I can legally get out in the circuit and fly around with the GA aircraft from the flying schools, the privately owned Baron from the hangar next door, several helicopters and a hot air balloon. The warbird jet and T4's don't get out of bed until after 8am. I can talk to all of these aircraft by radio and fly the same circuit pattern, but at 7.59am I have to be on the ground because for some magical reason, my flying abilities desert me at 8.00am. Happily, they will come back at 4.01pm when the tower closes for the day. Sure 99% of Australia is free range for RAA pilots, but in major metropolitan areas this range is severely restricted. In Sydney, there are only The Oaks and Wedderburn (a private club strip) to cater for Sydney residents who live south of the Harbour and Parramatta River. I don't know where the northerners fly from because it's a two hour drive to get over to that side of the Metro Area. That's what inhibits the growth of recreational flying in the major cities. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Nooyen Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Here's the irony .I've just arrived at work at Camden Airport. It's 7.00am. The control tower doesn't start until 8.00am. Therefore I can legally get out in the circuit and fly around with the GA aircraft from the flying schools, the privately owned Baron from the hangar next door, several helicopters and a hot air balloon. The warbird jet and T4's don't get out of bed until after 8am. I can talk to all of these aircraft by radio and fly the same circuit pattern, but at 7.59am I have to be on the ground because for some magical reason, my flying abilities desert me at 8.00am. Happily, they will come back at 4.01pm when the tower closes for the day.Sure 99% of Australia is free range for RAA pilots, but in major metropolitan areas this range is severely restricted. In Sydney, there are only The Oaks and Wedderburn (a private club strip) to cater for Sydney residents who live south of the Harbour and Parramatta River. I don't know where the northerners fly from because it's a two hour drive to get over to that side of the Metro Area. That's what inhibits the growth of recreational flying in the major cities. OME Since they closed Hoxton Park, Camden was OK to get in and out through the week. Since the Class "D" came about, Camden is towered 7 days, so I can not get in there anymore. Wollongong is about the closest one to Liverpool. Unless I renew my PPL and go to Bankstown. There never seems to be anyone at Wedderburn through the week, and it's a long walk to the main road. It seems Sydney is fast running out of airports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake.f Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 There is a flying school at Camden with the same exemption, but what happens when the student finishes training and gets an RAA certificate? "Sorry bud, but because you've done all your training under that rebel banner, we aren't going to let you play in our sandpit." The other descriminatory thing is, if I got my RAA certificate and Camden, and then got hangarage at there for a RAA plane, I could only fly in an out of Camden before 8am and after 4pm each day. This despite the fact that I would probably have done all my circuit training at Camden using the same radio procedures and flight behaviour that a student from the same school doing a PPL in a VH reg'd plane would use. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake.f Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Since they closed Hoxton Park, Camden was OK to get in and out through the week.Since the Class "D" came about, Camden is towered 7 days, so I can not get in there anymore. Wollongong is about the closest one to Liverpool. Unless I renew my PPL and go to Bankstown. There never seems to be anyone at Wedderburn through the week, and it's a long walk to the main road. It seems Sydney is fast running out of airports. There is also The Oaks a few miles SW of Camden (but not in the "vicinity") where there are quite a few private fliers as well as Daves Flying School (7 Day training) and Sydney Rec, Flying Club (weekend training). A lot less stuffing around and much cheaper than Camden and much closer than Wollongong. There is no training at Wedderburn and I am not sure of the facilities at Warnervale, Valley Ultralights still/used to operate there. Cheers Vote 1 Col, Vote 2 Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'm with you Jake! Angry Old Man Emu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The exemptions exempt ONLY the flying schools aeroplanes! That doesn't entitle you to fly your own privately owned RA-Aus aeroplane into the airspace that exemption covers. After you've gained a certificate, you can continue to privately hire the schools aeroplanes and operate out of the Class D airspace, just not operate your own plane there. Jandakot has an exemption for a flying school there however the Sporty is $190/hr (landing fee and GST inclusive) for an hours solo flying, I can rent a GA C152 for less than that solo! Totally defeats the purpose of RA-Aus, cheap and affordable flying. Unfortunately when you operate out of these aerodromes, the cost is much higher. The Sporty is a fun aeroplane to fly and makes for awesome scenic flights, so I'm happy to pay for that. I've never heard of an exemption for private RA-Aus operations into controlled airspace. There could be though! -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake.f Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Fortunately I don't see the higher cost, I pay $155 an hour dual to fly out of Coffs which is controlled and likely has a largish landing fee. So when next flying ask your instructor who owns the foxbat, and the purpose for that organisation owning it, and your instructor teaching in it and where MAF fits into the picture, and you may get an idea as to why you are geting a realtively cheap per hour cost. There arent purely commercial motives at play. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redozbris Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 It will be interesting to see what happens with the new CASA Recreational license and the RA Controlled Airspace Endorsement... its in the book, but you cant get it as yet.... I thankfully live up here in queensland where here in brisbane I am spoiled with choices, I have 4 aerodromes within 2 hours drive, and two within 45 minutes... The question I would like to ask is, that if we do get endorsed to fly into Delta airspace, would people want to land at there commercial hubs and have a fun day out on the tarmac, or would we be more likely just to use it as a shortcut for getting between A and B a little quicker ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I don't really know other Australian airspace that well but all the Class D stuff I've seen is relatively small. Cutting through Class D seems kind of pointless (unless it's to avoid tiger country!) -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 I might be incorrect, but isn't Class D airspace mainly associated with metropolitan airports with a control tower, and the area under control doesn't extend much beyond 2-3NM of the airport? That's the situation at Camden, NSW. As I've said elsewhere, I can legally operate an RAA reg airplane from a field just outside that control area, but it would be a waste of taxpayer owned facilities located at Camden Airport. Mind you, I can fly into, around and out of Camden as much as I like between 1600 on one day and 0800 the next, seven days a week. Why??? OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake.f Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I might be incorrect, but isn't Class D airspace mainly associated with metropolitan airports with a control tower, and the area under control doesn't extend much beyond 2-3NM of the airport?That's the situation at Camden, NSW. As I've said elsewhere, I can legally operate an RAA reg airplane from a field just outside that control area, but it would be a waste of taxpayer owned facilities located at Camden Airport. Mind you, I can fly into, around and out of Camden as much as I like between 1600 on one day and 0800 the next, seven days a week. Why??? OME You're right. The majority of Class D airspace is associated with the old GAAP aerodromes and it is relatively small. I think the restrictions exist purely because it's controlled, there's a controller there and you need to be able to abide by his instructions (reason for medical), RA-Aus planes are generally less reliable because of self maintenance and pilots aren't trained to fly in controlled airspace! When the controller's not there it's exactly like flying at a non towered aerodrome, you make the decisions yourself. There's also different VFR minima for Class D and other control zones. The exemptions that exist enforce L2 maintenance on the aircraft (as they should have anyway since they're training a/c) so if you were expecting a CTA endorsement, expect L2/LAME maintenance as a requirement. Professional maintenance is something I strongly believe in for CTA flying, especially in built up areas. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 RA-Aus planes are generally less reliable because of self maintenance-Andrew Ooo! Throw up the ramparts, Andrew. You are about to be attacked from all sides over that comment. The exemptions that exist enforce L2 maintenance on the aircraft (as they should have anyway since they're training a/c) so if you were expecting a CTA endorsement, expect L2/LAME maintenance as a requirement. Professional maintenance is something I strongly believe in for CTA flying, especially in built up areas. -Andrew Now there's the rub! I work for a GA LAME, who is also an L2 for the sake of any RAA owners who require service. Obviously, I'd like my plane serviced by him (I'm not an AME) If I operated my plane from outside Camden's D Class airspace, I could not cross the line into it for the purpose of getting my plane serviced by a professional. All because someone is up in the tower, reading magazines and snoozing most of his shift. (Good luck to him). OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 What's involved in this Holy Grail of a CTA endorsement anyway? OME 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Ooo! Throw up the ramparts, Andrew. You are about to be attacked from all sides over that comment.Now there's the rub! I work for a GA LAME, who is also an L2 for the sake of any RAA owners who require service. Obviously, I'd like my plane serviced by him (I'm not an AME) If I operated my plane from outside Camden's D Class airspace, I could not cross the line into it for the purpose of getting my plane serviced by a professional. All because someone is up in the tower, reading magazines and snoozing most of his shift. (Good luck to him). OME Anyone who maintains their ultralight aeroplane and thinks they're as good as a qualified GA LAME who has to sit a MINIMUM of 4 years full time training + theory training seriously needs to pull their head out. If you have the experience then sure, but you have to be able to prove it by attaining L2 qualification, if you don't then it means nothing! Attack me, but you know its true! If you want to fly in CTA expect CASA to assign the appropriate requirements. You're not gonna get it easy. I could not cross the line into it for the purpose of getting my plane serviced by a professional. All because someone is up in the tower, reading magazines and snoozing most of his shift. (Good luck to him).OME CASA/RAA don't know your personal qualifications so why should they let you fly a self maintained aircraft into CTA? Seriously, you think controllers snooze and read magazines in their shifts? I suggest you actually visit a tower. I have nothing but respect for these guys, they don't have easy jobs! http://www.auf.asn.au/opsmanual/3-04.pdf Section 3.04 - 37 "Controlled Airspace Endorsement" Take a read. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Camden - why midweek Dspace? Does it serve a useful purpose? Have there been any RAA prangs in the space or on the deck? Is this a job by Metro airports to move more aviation activities from Bankstown and flog off the space there? Isn't life full a Vesta situations! cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av8vfr Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Maybe I shouldn't bite... I have done 10 yrs RAAF Avionics. Then CASA state I have to I have to sit all of their exams and prove I am fit to be an AME... not even LAME!! Cause Military planes can't fly inthe real world... Add to that I have a background in electronics, electrical & aviation. I can aircraft install 10 times better than a home-built guy (no offence), & I am more tech-savvy than most.. I have steered away from aviation for work as there is no money in it and everyone wants it done on the cheap.. and I know I would be 10 times more diligent on my aircraft.... Sorry I took offense to the : Anyone who maintains their ultralight aeroplane and thinks they're as good as a qualified GA LAME who has to sit a MINIMUM of 4 years full time training + theory training seriously needs to pull their head out. but yes, I am over qualified but not recognised. Welcome to the real world FFS!! End Rant.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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