ParkesFlyer Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Hey Everyone, We've got a syndicate here in Parkes awaiting the arrival of a shiny new Flight Design CTMC (more on that when it arrives!) but right now I'm wondering how we might go about fueling it with mogas. Currently we have 100LL stored at the refueling facility at the airport and long-term I'd like to think we could arrange a tank for mogas there as well. Trouble is, what can we do in the interim? What are the legalities regarding fuel storage? I can check with our local council (airport owner) to see what their requirements will be, but what about from an aviation perspective? Is it kosher to buy fuel in 200 litre drums and pump it straight from there? Can it be kept inside the hanger? How about outside? Does this increase the chance of water in the fuel? I'm aware some of us routinely refuel our craft from Jerry cans, but to me that seems pretty impractical (and awkward) . I'd be interested to hear what people think... -PF. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Your local council will have rules for storage of fuels, max amounts, spill protection etc that will possibly be a direct copy of EPA rules. Casa have rules as well. I used the Mobile Aviation refuellers guide to obtain distances from buildings etc when refuelling and location of bulk tanks Storage of drums outside. lay them on their side sitting on timber to raise them off the ground. Bungs should be horizontal ie 9 and 3 o'clock positions. DO NOT leave in upright position. Even with the bungs tight and sealed they can still take in any water laying around the bungs when the drum expands and contracts. prepare for a bucket of worms. Every man and his dog has a say in fuel storage. ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Fuel transfer from a drum can also be a problem, hand pumps are available however you will find that any electric fuel transfer pump will be for Diesel only. There is obviously a risk of a spark so petrol is a no no. I have searched extensively and only found one Petrol Fuel Transfer Pump available in Australia which is 12 volt and has a magnetic pump, it is made specifically for 40 gallon drums. Send me a personal message and I will give you details. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icebob Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Hi PF, For a number of years(6 or 7 I think) we stored a 200Lt. drum on a wooden stand, slightly higher than the wing but at a height it was easy to load the drum from the back of a 5ton truck. We had a lockable tap in the small bung and another tap at the other end too and just cracked the big bung to let some air in and just gravity feed the aircraft. We too used the mobile aviation refuellers guide book and quoted that to our local council. As an aside the local building inspector made us put gravel/blue metal under the stand and use a once a year weed killer there too. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkesFlyer Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Lots of good ideas there, thanks Ozzie, Alan and Bob. Thanks for your help. Looks like whatever I do I should look at the Mobile Aviation Refuellers guide book which could be useful. :) PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P4D Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Does anyopne have a link to the Mobile Aviation Refuellers guide book I am having a problem finding it online. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Im nearby and have a near new hand refueling pump Im keen to sell, has meter and filter, set up for 200l drums. The issue with 12v pumps is correct there are none Ok for ULP I know of. This one is high flow Macnaught moves a lot of fuel easily. I used to buy 200L drums of Avgas at remote VIC airfield. Moving full ones is tough work without a forklift. Contamination in drums is a serious issue as is the degradation of Unleaded fuels if stored for even short periods. Be careful what can of worms you open storing fuel, insurance companies and council seriously dont like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkesFlyer Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 Hey JJ, Thanks for that, I'll keep you in mind if we end up going that way (we've got a few months, so you may have sold it by then!). PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecnamdave Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Hey JJ,Thanks for that, I'll keep you in mind if we end up going that way (we've got a few months, so you may have sold it by then!). PF. I often hear others refer to degradation of fuel if stored for long periods of time, can someone please explain the down side of storing ULP in a sealed container, is there a point in time that the fuel becomes un usable or loses its potency. I have had fuel in motor vehicles that have not been used for 12 months that started and ran OK. lawn mowers and two stroke engines I understand leave a bit to be desired when using old fuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Hi Dave for several years I was also advised against storing ULP for long periods and our RAAus Tech Rep Steve Bell wrote an article on this in the RAA Mag about a year ago. I was so worried about it, that I would often drain fuel out of my Swing Wing and Tyro if I had not flown for three or four weeks. When I bought my last aircraft (Supa Pup Mk4) I stretched that on one occasion to three months with no apparent ill effects. These aircraft are all two strokes and I stored my fuel in plastic 20 ltr containers. I then decided to go even further by putting fuel which was over 6 months old in one wing tank and fresh fuel in the other, then went flying. I flew for an hour constantly switching fuel tanks in all modes of flying including take-offs but could not detect any difference in performance or temperatures. I am sure that some forum members may criticise what I did and I would welcome any comments however I am not recommending you do this but just telling you what I did. I am based at Gawler and Truro Flats and currently fly the Morgan Sierra also using ULP. Alan Marriette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecnamdave Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Thanks Alan I think along those lines also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chird65 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 have you thought about buying a lot of 10 ltr containers. The reasoning around this is they are easy to transport, are around what you can lift to a high wing fill point, and each is sealed to keep out water and condensation. It is also easy to refill when half are empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecnamdave Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 have you thought about buying a lot of 10 ltr containers. The reasoning around this is they are easy to transport, are around what you can lift to a high wing fill point, and each is sealed to keep out water and condensation. It is also easy to refill when half are empty. Ye Still a lot of container handling i know. life aint meant to be easy. that dose not answer the question dose ULP go stale to the extent that it dont work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 At my workplace to store flammable liquids inside above 120 lires (I think it is) the requirement is to pay for an annual 'dangerous goods licence' from the Worksafe or whatever the latest name for the useless government department is. Beyond that fit the correct signs on the exterior of the building for the fire dept and provide adequate bunding around the storage area. Your insurance company may insist on a fire-resistant storage cabinet which can be a hassle, talk them out of it. Council has nothing to do with it, not that I would bother to tell them anyway of course. They only good for spraying the weeds by the footpath and collecting trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I don't know about unleaded petrol, but back in 1954 I was uncrating bren gun carriers that had been in boxes since the war, ie 8 years. Some had fuel in and we would always give them a try after assembly to see if they would run. I reckon about 50% ran OK, the rest we had to clean the carbie. The engine was a side valve Ford V8. Don't think I would like to try fuel over a year old in a plane and I believe the contents change with the weather, ie more volatile in cold weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecnamdave Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I don't know about unleaded petrol, but back in 1954 I was uncrating bren gun carriers that had been in boxes since the war, ie 8 years. Some had fuel in and we would always give them a try after assembly to see if they would run. I reckon about 50% ran OK, the rest we had to clean the carbie. The engine was a side valve Ford V8.Don't think I would like to try fuel over a year old in a plane and I believe the contents change with the weather, ie more volatile in cold weather. I can understand fuel being left in a carbie for a number of years causing problems. fuel in a drum being around 3 to 4 months or a bit longer is another thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 . Council has nothing to do with it, not that I would bother to tell them anyway of course. Poses a bit of a problem if the Council owns the airfield. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy s Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Apparently unleaded fuel goes stale after 6weeks, and i know that my kawasaki ag bike will not run when the fuel has gone stale and having too drain the tank and fuel lines and replace with fresh fuel and change spark plug, but the same fuel will still run the whipper snipper and mower. The local kawasaki dealer said just run avgas as it has a longer life expectency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Apparently unleaded fuel goes stale after 6weeks, and i know that my kawasaki ag bike will not run when the fuel has gone stale and having too drain the tank and fuel lines and replace with fresh fuel and change spark plug, but the same fuel will still run the whipper snipper and mower. The local kawasaki dealer said just run avgas as it has a longer life expectency. You are correct with the Avgas however it contains lead so you have carbon build up (you just can't win) however we prefer ULP at 98 octane from a BP service station with a high turnover of fuel. Alan Marriette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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