Guest Crash Lander Posted April 15, 2007 Share Posted April 15, 2007 Had a good lesson today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Your instructor took you into cloud? If you are flying RAAus that is illegal. If flying GA it seems a bit stupid to do for a low hours student without ample pre flight instruction. Having said that it will have given you a good idea of what cloud is like and you may see sense enough to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Not uncommon for an instructor to take a student, either low time or high time into a cloud situation. Makes them realise the dangers involved in such practice. I knew an instructor who used to take his students into cloud in the Drifter, however it was usually a small piece of fluff floating somewhere in the sky. He very carefully approached, had a good look around for other aircraft and entered with care, knowing that he only had a short distance to 'fall' so to speak. He said it scared the living crap out of him every time but he did feel it was a valuable exercise. That being said, entry into cloud in a Gazelle, even if equipped with an AH is fraught with danger. I had an AH failure on the way to Narromine which turned out to be instrument rather than vacuum, however if it was vacuum it would have been the AH, Turn and DG and near certain loss of control. Save the cloud flying for the IFR aircraft with twin AH's and all the gear! or, buy a hood for $16.95 and do all the instrument flying you can handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crash Lander Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Cloud? What cloud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airham Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 It's a once a week fix for me on a Gazelle - cannot afford more as hire on a Gazelle here (solo) is $120 p/h. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crash Lander Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 I can only afford a flight about once every 2 weeks, sometimes longer. The Gazelle where I'm learning has just had it's rates put up. It's now $155 dual, and $95 solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Gee, that's a shame, $120 solo is a little on the steep side. You'd think that being the former home of Skyfoxes in Caloundra there might be a few of them around which might help to lower the price. Even Jabs range from $90 - $110 down here in Melbourne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 One of the reasons that flying in cloud is illegal for RAAus pilots is becuse an IFR flight may be in the cloud. Don't do it, but if you must or your instructor is stupid enough to teach you to flout the rules, don't boast about it. It may come back and bite you. Who knows Paul Middleton or CASA could well be looking at this forum, in which case you may be looking for a new instructor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 without the experience in cloud, you will never learn its dangers... its one thing to read about the dangers, its another to actually experience the disorientation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 It seems like the simple solution is to jump in an IFR capable GA aircraft with an instrument rated instructor for an hour and go and experience it. Good outcomes all round. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crash Lander Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 One of the reasons that flying in cloud is illegal for RAAus pilots is becuse an IFR flight may be in the cloud. That's true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Don't do it, but if you must or your instructor is stupid enough to teach you to flout the rules, don't boast about it. It may come back and bite you. Aah, I have not posted in a while. Yes, good and bad in this Ian.Point taken.But...it could also save Chris' life one day. Just remember though, when climbing above cloud, never ever assume there will be a hole where you wish to come out. Just a thought...I just chose to keep away from the stuff.You never know who's popping out of the other side as is what Ian is stating above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Further Chris, Glad your make-believe story scared the sh#! out of you. Now imagine what it would be like being stuck in this crap and finding no way out.No thanks! :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Your make believe story may have backfired on your instructor as you named him in an early post. Also remember that there are rules there for flying above cloud. Max 4/8 cloud to be legal and the rules were all made using past experience, not just by beaurocratic killjoys. A friend of mine told the story about waiting for cloud to clear and when it looked OK off he went as he knew that once it started clearing it didn't re-form. On this occasion he was wrong and flew 50nm. above the cloud until he heard ultralights talking on the radio and was told where he could find a place to get below the cloud. He was a bold pilot who learnt a good lesson that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Yep, anything over 4/8ths cloud cover requires a NVFR rating with an IFR equipped aircraft, or alternatively full IFR or Private IFR. Best keeping out of the clouds at all times. There's little point in entering cloud when you don't know what you are doing, only to prove that you didn't know what you are doing, thus either doing something silly, illegal or alternatively embarrasing yourself. Flying up through holes is also fraught with danger. 'Holes' as you put them are often cylindrical rather than flat and you can end up in a world of hurt when trying to fly through them. Posting experiences (legal or not) is all about learning and sharing. It would be a crude act (and probably unprecedented) for a law enforcer or rule maker of any kind to read this info and take action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crash Lander Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 there are rules there for flying above cloud. Max 4/8 cloud to be legal and the rules were all made using past experience, not just by beaurocratic killjoys. They call them OCTA's if my current study of the BAK is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 They call them OCTA's if my current study of the BAK is correct. Nah, That's confusion:;)3: OKTA is an 1/8 of cloud OCTA is Outside Controlled Airspace So If you get into OKTAs or into OCTA you are in trouble!!! Ciao Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Weather observing Part D - Cloud amount Cloud amount is measured by dividing the sky up into eights, known by meteorologists as oktas, and estimating how much is covered by cloud. If there are lots of patches of individual cloud, estimate how much of the sky they would cover if they were all put together. If you cannot see the sky because it is obscured by fog, this is reported as 9 oktas. The table below will help as a guide. CLOUD TYPES 0 oktas Clear skies 1 okta Almost clear skies, just the odd cloud 2 oktas Mostly clear skies, only a quarter of the sky covered by cloud 3 oktas Partly cloudy, just over half the sky is cloudless 4 oktas Partly cloudy, half of the sky covered by cloud 5 oktas More than half the sky covered by cloud 6 oktas Mostly cloudy, only a quarter of the sky showing 7 oktas Almost overcast, just a small amount of sky showing 8 oktas Overcast, no sky showing 9 oktas Sky obscured by fog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Got it. 110%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Bear Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 You'll be right to fly then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David C Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 The term OKTA is no longer used either in METARS or on ATIS transmissions to describe cloud cover due to the confusion with the term OCTA (Out of Controlled Airspace ) . Cloud cover is now described to as Scattered , Broken or Few , dependant on the level of cloud cover . Hope this helps and hasn't added to the confusion .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Further to David C's post, and in the hope of adding clarity and not confusion, the following are the officially recognised cloud descriptions and abbreviations one is likely to encounter when reading TAFs and ARFORs and when listening to an ATIS report. SKC (clear sky) 0 okcta FEW (few) 1-2 oktas SCT (scattered) 3-4 oktas BKN (broken) 5-7 oktas OVC (overcast) 8 oktas So, when you see/hear stuff like this for a TAF, SCT015 BKN030, you will know that the lower level of cloud over the said airfield is 3-4 oktas with a base of 1500' and there is another level of cloud sitting above that of 5-7 oktas with a base of 3000'. Another term we'll come across is CAVOC. Some translate that as Clear And Visibility OK. It's actually Ceiling And Visibility OK meaning ... - visibility 10km or more; - no cloud below 5000' or below the highest minimum sector alt (whichever is the greater) and no Cb; and - no precipitation, TS, shallow fog, low drifting snow or dust devils. Hope this helps, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Hey Paul, is it CAVOC or CAVOK - just curious ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crash Lander Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Further to David C's post, and in the hope of adding clarity and not confusion, the following are the officially recognised cloud descriptions and abbreviations one is likely to encounter when reading TAFs and ARFORs and when listening to an ATIS report.SKC (clear sky) 0 okcta FEW (few) 1-2 oktas SCT (scattered) 3-4 oktas BKN (broken) 5-7 oktas OVC (overcast) 8 oktas So, when you see/hear stuff like this for a TAF, SCT015 BKN030, you will know that the lower level of cloud over the said airfield is 3-4 oktas with a base of 1500' and there is another level of cloud sitting above that of 5-7 oktas with a base of 3000'. Another term we'll come across is CAVOC. Some translate that as Clear And Visibility OK. It's actually Ceiling And Visibility OK meaning ... - visibility 10km or more; - no cloud below 5000' or below the highest minimum sector alt (whichever is the greater) and no Cb; and - no precipitation, TS, shallow fog, low drifting snow or dust devils. Hope this helps, Paul All good! Thanks! I pretty much had a grasp of most of that from flying the flight simulator online. Didn't however relate the different descripstion (few, skc etc) to OKTAS. Just to clarify a few things I've read, that seem to read confusingly to me. I'm going to be doing my BAK in the not too distant futre, so I'm going through all the books. All these apply to a pilot with only an RAA license, and no PPL. We are not permitted to fly above 5000ft. You can fly above the clouds, but only if you can see the ground at least once every 30 minutes. (how the hell you would be able to judge that before you get up there if it's a bit cloudy, I have no idea!) When going above, or coming back under clouds, this must be done in a 'break' in the clouds. It seems to me you might need a rather big gap to get back down! What do you do if you can't find a big enouh cloud at the end of a cross country flight to get back down? It is legal to fly right at the bottom of the clouds if you are under 5000ft. (a bit sketchy on this one). Where does the 1000ft horizontal and 500ft vertical (those numbers may be wrong) limitations come into it? I'll think of more, but these ones have got me thinking recently. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crash Lander Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Hey Paul, is it CAVOC or CAVOK - just curious ;) OOO! I know! CAVOK! Although, I always thought the meaning was Clouds And Visibility OK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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