Guest High Plains Drifter Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Hmmm..... Have a look at this well known video. Imagine you were just a bystander at the perimeter fence watching those milatary types doing there usual wild thing. As a bystander, what would you say caused this military arcraft to crash ?........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPC7LvPyFU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Looks to me like the control locks were left in. Based on what I can see through the windows too, 5 people died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Imagine you were just a bystander at the perimeter fence watching those milatary types doing there usual wild thing. Cant have occured in Australia. If its there usual wild thing then I suggest 2-3weeks would see us out of aircraft.... As a bystander, what would you say caused this military arcraft to crash ?........ Incorrect transition from air vehicle to ground vehicle. In otherwords ground not wanting to share with air. Seriously if anyone was to actually ask what yout thought caused this it would always be as a follow on question from what did you see happen. The second question is only likely to be asked if you establish some for of qualification that gives relevance to the answer you then give! If you have established those qualifications then the answer you give has to be considered and not ignored as the ravings of an insensitive sod! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Seen that one before then Brent... ;) Understand the point and question about the video, initial reaction might be "pilot climbed too steeply after rotating, stalled and crashed" thus assuming pilot/human error. In actual fact the gust locks were left in causing effectively the same result with ultimately same cause = human error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 What is the prefered correction from this type of elevator malfunction (if there is one)?Cheers, Ant. My thoughts only - if you had no elevator control but had aileron control, you could/would use power and elevator trim (assuming the trim tab is a seperate mechanism) to control your attitude and airspeed and therefore height. Something we should all have been taught / exposed to during our initial training and something we should experience ongoing is how to make effective use of primary and secondary controls or other available means to control an aircraft in the event of a failure of one of your primary or secondary controls. We all learn about engine failure, what about an elevator failure, flap failure, aileron failure... Good question Ant. Cheers, Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I seem to recall that the caribou flight was also related to a re-engining project where the avgas guzling beasts were replaced with turbines. The relationship of that comment to Matts was that it was already in the regeme of test flights and the aircraft performance was being discovered (if my understanding was correct) I wonder if I was flying it and I somehow understood what was occuring If I was to throw out full flap (with the associated nose lowering that causes) might have been an option, however to come to that conclusion in the timeframe that they actually had would require a decision in under 3 seconds from lift off and a flap deploy complete within the next 3 as the nose goes to an unrecoverably high angle very quickly..... Ejection seat anyone.....? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TOSGcentral Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Perhaps this loss of an expensive aircraft, and the five on board, may have been averted simply by establishing in the most basic of pre take-off checks, that the flight controls were in fact ‘full and free’ – if in fact the control locks were in place? It reminds me of a four prop (I think a Tudor) that went in at Gattow during the Berlin Airlift (well sort of went in because it never got much height). The aircraft had EVERY control lock firmly in place and nobody thought to give the control wheel or rudder at least a bit of a twirl until they were at full power and committed! They all died! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 not wanting to sound silly but i have seen on cessna's the control lock has a red tag over the column... you would have to be blind to miss it but being a bigger aircraft i do not know how they work.... actually hold the phone i do remember seeing a rudder lock being used on a aero commander (370 i think ?) it was on evan's aircraft from melton airfield. it just simply slid under the rudder onto the rest of the vertical stab. looked like "H" section. "controls full and free" is a part of my checklist of which is memorized. from this point on i will be using the "printed checklist". which gives you all an answer to the poll on this forum "do you use a printed checklist or memorize it" unfortunately we only think of these things now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Controls free. "Once around the world " prior to rolling doesn't take much effort does it? A good reminder to the passenger to keep their legs away from the column too. Andy, the avgas guzzling beasts,( P&W R-2000's ) would use only about 2/5ths the fuel of the turbo-props that replaced them. The elevator is the ONE control that you generally cannot do without. That is why an aircraft should have a seperate trim tab independently operated . If the elevator gust lock was left in, the tab would work in the opposite sense , but it is mainly for the situation where the primary control is lost, that it is nice to have another way .Nev.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aircraft1 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 A lot of planes are impossible to check the rudder on the ground anyway.... The 172 wont do much when stationary and some of the tail draggers wont do much till the weight is off the tail, still its best to physically check as part of preflight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest High Plains Drifter Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Whilst I removed the Caribou post from the Moruya thread, it is a bit of a mystery what my post to "The Philosophy of posting on this Forum" thread is doing in its own stand alone thread ??? ...I certainly didnt start this thread. I am useing the Caribou accident to demonstraite a point in my argument (argument, as in debate) in relation to Tonys thread starter in the "Philosophy of posting..." thread. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest switchblade Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 The Caribou was at some stage fitted with a gust/control lock that physically prevented the thrust levers from being advanced. Possibly as a result of this accident...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Whilst I removed the Caribou post from the Moruya thread, it is a bit of a mystery what my post to "The Philosophy of posting on this Forum" thread is doing in its own stand alone thread ??? ...I certainly didnt start this thread.I am useing the Caribou accident to demonstraite a point in my argument (argument, as in debate) in relation to Tonys thread starter in the "Philosophy of posting..." thread. . I realized that HPD, but Tony felt his thread was being polluted by the subsequent Caribou discussion (and I agreed), so I moved them all here. Just to keep you happy I have put a copy of your post back there. Now I need a lie down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest High Plains Drifter Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Thanks for the explanation slarti. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TOSGcentral Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Hi HPD, Just to keep things straight - I took your 'Bou post in context but it promptly got a life of its own and started generating a lot of good discussion which I reckoned left my main topic somewhat on the beach. So I thought it best to suggest it's own thread where the subject could be adequately dealt with (and look at the number of views it got within just a few hours) leaving the philosophy thread to tackle, in reasonable isolation, what is recurrent comment on the Accidents & Incidents thread and does need a bit of agreement on Aye Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J430 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I see talk of controls Full and Free............ could be one hidden danger here folks! How about Full, Free and in the CORRECT SENSE. There have been LAMES and L2's and maybe yourself stuffing around with your airframe at some point and you may not realise it if they have crossed the controls. It has happened before and the results are pretty weird! J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipnz Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Controls free and easy....... my instructor really hammered that one home http://www.caa.govt.nz/Accident_Reports/ZK-SHG_Fatal_02Jul2003.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I see talk of controls Full and Free............ could be one hidden danger here folks!How about Full, Free and in the CORRECT SENSE.J Absolutely. Someone here once stated an easy way to remember the correct sense for that check. As you move the stick towards a control surface, it should come up to meet you. So, stick right - right aileron should rise towards the stick. Stick back, elevator should rise towards the stick. Simple and easy. PS - someone please check this for sanity - coz I have none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Except when flying a canard, then the elevator works in the opposite sense.. ozzie red = life blue= work green = everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Correct sense. That's OK for the ailerons Starti, but not for the rudder. Tarzan pointed out that you can't see the rudder, generally. which is true. I have been doing this check on the pre-flight walk around at the same time as I am checking the hinges etc. for security and play. I still do the freedom check prior to rolling, It's a habit I will stick with. By then you have loaded the plane and installed the passenger(s) and you need to make sure that the passenger is not fouling the controls, and a reminder to him/her to give them enough room to allow full travel. The point about the controls being checked for correct sense is most important, and I believe there were many instances of incorrect assembly with gliders, causing control reversal. A DECENT design would be configured to make this impossible, but many don't . Nev... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Matt's call is "KNEES AND NUTS!!!" :big_grin: I get that at least twice before takeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Longden Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 With that vid, it must be my eyes, but I could not see any sparks (other than after the impact) But watching the climbing turn, would it be fair to say the angle of bank was greater than 20 degrees, which would contribute toward a stall? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Caribou and Cross controls Maybe the aircraft had just been serviced and had the controls to the Ailerons connected wrong (Cross controls)(Its happened many times before causing accidents) thus controls would still feel smooth & free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Hard to tell but it looks like a slight but rapid pitch up a couple of seconds after lift off, just before the start of the roll. (gust lock latching in?) the right aileron looks like it is deflected up. but there does not seem to be any actual movement of any control surface at all. I think it would be instinctive to hold full backstick just before impact. I have seen RAAf 'bous in action and they are more than capable of tight climbing turns straight after lift off. i think the pitch up is the key point in this. Ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coyote2 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Turbine Caribou crash http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/oldplanecrash.wmv This video may be a little better than the youtube one. Needs Windows media player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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