Ewen McPhee Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Having created my own EFATO due to "Human Factors" last weekend, and survived I think it would be good if experienced people on the forum would give their own advice on the options when the Cooling fan stops. My experience was when at pre takeoff checks I noticed the fuel taps were in different positions. All I can say is that the two planes I fly have fuel taps that toggle in different directions. Somehow instead of turning both on I turned both off. Amazingly I got to 200 feet and then clunk no power. All I did was nose over keep the airspeed up, flaps out and landed with plenty of runway to spare. My poor instructor who had been watching from the hangar had a near heart attack, I was not phased at all just felt very stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 I hate to admit that I have done something similar....I am willing to bet that you won't mis manage fuel ever ever again. Its good that we are both still kicking to tell the tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Waspot Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Ewen, Reminds me of a similar event last year - not "human factors" as such, more of a design idiosyncracy with the fuel pick ups from the tank being at the front of the tank, rather than underneath, which meant that shortly after takeoff, on a steep climb out with about 20% fuel on board (it was just intended to be one circuit, so fuel quantity should have been ok), the engine lost power. Nosing over to look for the nearest flat paddock meant the fuel sloshed forward over the intakes, the fuel pump stopped sucking air and all was well with the world. I did however immediately rtb with slightly wobbly legs and a wife who is even less likely to fly with me! I am now very wary of going up with less than a third of a tank, even on a short local flight. As someone else sagely observes on this site - "Never stop learning". Regards, Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Col Wot a/c was that. That is a serious design floor. Imagine, low-ish on fuel, getting slack and dragging in at the end of the day, slow down, back on the stick, fat dumb and happy and the niose stops 150m short of the threshold. Bloody hell. What a/c was it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Waspot Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 AAK Wasp - probably not quite as bad as it sounds - not an issue on approach, as it is quite nose down and has to be to keep flying, but could be a problem on a steep "go round", which is where the "human factors" comes in, now that I know what to plan for. I have told the kit manufacturer, so this will hopefully be addressed. I deal with it by ensuring I carry plenty of fuel, which seems the wise thing to do in any event. Otherwise it's a great fun plane to fly, and I love the view with the shoulder wing. Cheers, Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 This is a serious operational hazard even if you are aware of it. I would be very interested to know how this insane design feature made it all the way to production. Added to all of this is that you, carrying plenty of fuel effectively reduces your tank capaciyt by 20%, reduces your range by 20% and adds (I'm guessing) 15 kg to your efective basic empty weight. Hmmm, the manufacturer didn't offer to fix it I suppose?? Does steve Bell know about this, is he happy for this a/c to fly with this defect.? I'm sorry to be a whinger about this but I know what an engine failure feels like and your machine is basically a trap waiting to get someone and there only a very few, select people in the world that I'd like to see in that situation. Holy crap, I've just notivced that this is a Mk 11, that's even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Having created my own EFATO due to "Human Factors" last weekend, and survived I think it would be good if experienced people on the forum would give their own advice on the options when the Cooling fan stops. In my early training it was clear that I was ahead of the other students and was going to solo at about two thirds of their hours. I was pretty good on theory too, and didn't know what all the fuss was about BAK. This particular morning the instructor said "Go and check it out" and I was so keen to start I almost ran out to the aircraft. A short while later out he came and off we taxied, with word perfect radio transmissions to MB Ground as it was then (Of course today we would say "Australia, Melbourne, Moorabbin to make it clear we weren't in China). On the way to the runup bay the engine quit, and the real tructh about my abilities came out. "What happened?" I asked the instructor "You're the pilot" he said Both fuel taps were turned off. "But I turned them on" I stammered "No, the last person failed to turn them off, and you just jumped in and did a quarter turn as you usually do, and turned them off. If this was a country strip, we'd be eating grass right now, and by the way act a bit faster if you want to save the aircraft" I've never turned a tap on without looking at it since. So that's two of us who have been lucky Ewen - human factors really are important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relfy Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Thanks for sharing this with us Ewan. All the responses to your admission are a great learning source for us lower time pilots. I've found lately that I now run through my checks again when backtracking, just to make sure even before lining up and quickly running over things again. Does anyone else do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neville75 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 My last lesson after takeoff instead of switching off the fuel pump I pressed the switch adjacent to it, turning the landing light on. My instructor waited until we levelled off before advising of my error. I was horrified! Although not something that caused any issue, I still can't believe it. With only 13 hours it certainly has put the willys up me - what if it was something more significant. I'm certain to be more careful next time. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Fuel selection. Mismanaged fuel cocks have brought down far too many aircraft. Sometimes it is the design of the selector knob. Sometimes they have a "point" (usually quite small) and other times just a tail. (The thing to note is that there is no standardisation). There is usually an element of unfamiliarity with the system as well. When you select the fuel to "OFF" accidentally, there always seems to be enough fuel to get you to about 200',on take off There is a time tested procedure amongst older pilots, that you "prove" the fuel supply. That is that it will actually supply fuel after you have selected it, from a different source. This may take a number of minutes at cruise power, but forever (almost) at idle power when taxying. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 My last lesson after takeoff instead of switching off the fuel pump I pressed the switch adjacent to it, turning the landing light on. My instructor waited until we levelled off before advising of my error. I was horrified! Although not something that caused any issue, I still can't believe it. With only 13 hours it certainly has put the willys up me - what if it was something more significant. I'm certain to be more careful next time. By default aircraft switches are mounted in such a way that DOWN is OFF and UP is ON. If it isn't it really helps if it is once you get used to it. In that situation, say turning the pump off, you would be putting the switch DOWN, whereas turning the landing light on you would have to lift it UP, if you can follow what I'm saying... Not sure what the set up is in the aircraft you're flying, but most aircraft usually function in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chird65 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Turbo, Was this a Piper by chance. I took till my first group of passengers to do the same (Standard School practice was to switch to off and someone had not). I can tell you I was happy it was my first passenger trip as I had got to the point in my training of starting up, basic checks, flight controls while taxiing, checks for aircraft while facing the traffic, entering the runway and firewalling it. If I had of done that I may not have had anywhere but the pines to land on. By the way it failed while running up and I knew what had happened but I took a 30 sec break and started from scratch. Sure had some surprised passengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefootpilot Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 When I learnt the school that taught me had us taxi out on the lowest tank and then change to the full tank in the run-up bay. Now I am a little wiser I will always start on the tank that I will take off on. Why? Two reasons. 1, If you forget to change the tank and take off on one that doesn't have much if any fuel in it. 2, By running on the tank you will initially fly on you give it the most time to make sure the fuel is flowing and everything is ok. In flight if I change tank I sit and wait about 30 secounds with my hand ready to switch back the the orginal tank and the same when i switch the fuel pump off. Thats the great thing about flying you are always learning... anything that doesn't kill you makes your stronger! Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 g'day Adam, had a real close look at one of you float planes over long reef the other day. lol. contoller gave us traffic, but didn't give us the bigass caravan climbing out did he.. anyway, if it was you, sorry bout that.:thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Chird it was a Victa, but the quadrant switch was much the same. I never have a problem in the Cherokee because I always looked first then moved the selector, after my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefootpilot Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 No worries Andrew it was possibly me as it seems like I never get out of that plane at the moment! We are pretty used to getting close to other aircraft around victor one and have made in company procedure to grow eyes in the back of our heads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neville75 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 By default aircraft switches are mounted in such a way that DOWN is OFF and UP is ON. If it isn't it really helps if it is once you get used to it.In that situation, say turning the pump off, you would be putting the switch DOWN, whereas turning the landing light on you would have to lift it UP, if you can follow what I'm saying... Not sure what the set up is in the aircraft you're flying, but most aircraft usually function in that way. Exactly right Tomo the switches are aligned as you detailed, which is why I was so annoyed. Suffice to say will be not making that mistake again. Aircraft is a PA28 piper, the plane I've done the majority of my lessons in. Anyway thanks for your reminder, will be more thorough next time, not just going through the motions. Probably a good thing to do early on in my training with no consequence other than to make me a better pilot. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefootpilot Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Wasn't me on Tuesday would have been one of the other boys. The Tugs can get a bit antsy if we get to close so we try and give them a wide berth. The Van overnights at Pelican so that it can start the first flight from Newcastle first thing in the morning. I've only been with the company for a couple of years but Rob is still around doing mostly endo's now and maintenance control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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