Roundsounds

I would be interested to hear people’s thoughts in regards to the following quote…

“in a slipping turn you are providing anti spin rudder. In a skidding turn pro spin rudder.”

On 30/1/2024 at 11:54 PM, LoonyBob said:

I consider the problem, in GA and RA, to be the lack of a spinnable trainer that is economically practicable. WTF do we not all do 3 hours with the GFA, where they have spinnable trainers and a great deal of currency on the manouvre??

There are airplanes like Citabrias, Decathlons, Cessna Aerobats, Robins and others available for spin training. The main issue I have with gliders being used for power pilot training is the lack of a throttle, I often find during spin training pilots miss setting  idle during recovery. It’s highly likely an unintentional spin will be in a situation with power applied.

It’s one thing to verbalise it during a briefing, but the proof is in the application. I usually arm the speed brake during stalling sequences in jet simulator training, following the recovery manoeuvre it’s often still armed. Stowing the speed brake is part of the standard Boeing stall recovery manoeuvre. The trainees might have recited the actions during the briefing or immediately prior to the exercise but often omit the step during the practice sequence. As a human factors consideration I fear power pilots would omit setting idle power if spin training was only conducted in a glider. 

14 hours ago, sfGnome said:

I said no, because I don’t *know* that I flew into a stall. There was one time in my early days - an ugly, gusty day - when as I was turning to crosswind from the takeoff, I hit what I assumed was a strong gust that put the aircraft on its side (or so it felt). My instructor took control, recovered, and we decided that it wasn’t a good day for learning…

 

Maybe it was just a gust blowing us around. Maybe it was a wind speed change that turned my climbing power-on turn into a climbing power-on stall at 500 ft? Who knows?

Sadly a very valuable lost learning opportunity if the instructor didn’t take the time to explain what had happened. Maybe they didn’t know what had happened? It’s worth flying for a bit on days like that to help you become comfortable, one day you might be caught out in them. Even to become comfortable with the stall warning intermittently showing / sounding. A gusty day will often cause a temporary high AoA and trigger a warning, it doesn’t mean you’ve stalled. Knowing what’s acceptable and adding 20 knots to the approach speed isn’t necessarily the answer. 

I have stalled many, many times during aerobatics. Both nibbling on the edge and occasionally departing controlled flight. This is all at a safe altitude and mostly in aerobatic aeroplanes. I did years of competition flying, which included streamer cutting in a range of aeroplanes. I recall a most spectacular event in a Cessna 180 at Moruya, I think it frightened the daylights out of the safety pilot! Trying to claw around a 60 bank turn at minimum speed to reduce the turn radius and got a bit enthusiastic. No big deal, simply neutralise the ailerons, stop any yaw with rudder, reduce the angle of attack and recover from the ensuing dive. 
It’s the playing around the edges of the stall in a safe place that helps you recognise what’s close to a stall and safe versus “this is likely to let go”. You don’t really know that point for a particular aeroplane unless you do that type of exercise. Again I stress at a safe height and if you’re not qualified / proficient in aerobatics have an instructor with you who is proficient and happy to let you explore that end of the flight envelope.   
 

anyone who hasn’t done this type of flying is an accident looking for the right time to happen. 

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Training to a max bank angle of 30 degrees can promote that. OK for Airliners BUT......   Nev

It’s the yank not the bank that kills people!

People then keep bank angles low and “help” the turn with rudder and skid. 

3 hours ago, Area-51 said:

This is a good couple of examples addressing the original question posted; its got some great footage of how the elevator reacted with buffet in the moment, and also how much elevator was being used during the pattern in general while trying to slow the aircraft up.

 

It's a little rear to hear these kinds of stories because the pilot in command is generally often too dead to talk about it.

 

 

 

 

 

Have a look at the aileron position as it “dipped” the wing versus the aileron position during other shots. He was holding off bank, likely the result of a skidding turn. A nasty combination of being very close to the critical angle of attack and a skidding turn, as he said very close to a spin entry. This is sort of scenario should be a standard training sequence at a safe altitude with an appropriately qualified instructor in an aeroplane certified for spinning. It’s not about spin recovery, but knowing the signs of an impending spin entry. 

54 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

I don't think I have ever seen a video of an aircraft stalling and hitting the ground without at least a quarter of a turn of rotation. The rudder can pick up a wing however its purpose is to stop yaw. No yaw no spin.

 

It is not that hard to fly correct airspeed at all times.

The critical thing is angle of attack, which is closely related to “stick position”. As you stated, rudder is used to prevent yaw. Unfortunately many people are taught and believe it’s used to pick up a wing approaching / at the stall. If you’re good enough to pick up a wing during a stall you wouldn’t have stalled in the first place. 

21 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You should be able to fly safely without airspeed indication, IF that happens, but no marks lost if you fly  a bit fast. Looking back on my training it requires an aerobatic aircraft to explore the boundaries of when Dynamic stalls happen and some fancy manoeuvre's at a safe height PRACTICE. Heightened seat of the Pant's awareness is part of it also and a head Up Display of fast slow is a great help.. I think it all started to go WRONG when we didn't have Planes like  The  Tiger moth and Chipmink to learn in. The whole deal has been "Dumbed down". No wonder people  get caught out . Planes are NOT like CARS.  WHEN a plane gets too slow it falls out of the bottom of the sky. Nev

The best primary training aeroplane around today is the ACA Citabria. 

The current standard of flight training is appalling, particularly around recognition of an impending stall and recovery. 
I use scenario based events to train and assess pilots during stall sequences.
Pre solo the scenarios include recognising and recovering from impending and developed stalls in climbing turns, descending turns, balloon during the flare and bounced landing. Teaching stall recovery wings level, 1G is next to useless. 

On 4/2/2024 at 2:48 PM, kgwilson said:

Why do you need throttle at all on very short final. Keeping some on right till almost touchdown must increase your landing speed. You should be fully stalled at touchdown

Being fully stalled at touchdown is a falacy! The only aeroplane I’ve flown that comes anywhere near stalled on touchdown is a 3 point landing in a Tiger Moth. 

1 hour ago, KRviator said:

The 1500 Camden AWIS a few minutes prior to the accident was out of the northwest at 9 gusting 13, so almost direct crosswind (Though the BoM records now show it as 8 knots, not a meaningful change really, but I note it on the grounds of accuracy). That being the case, GS would be almost identical to IAS on the downwind leg, if not slightly lower than indicated. Given there's no reduction of GS to anything resembling stall speed for a lightweight 172, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he didn't stall it or spin in. Compare the ADS-B data here with that from the Gundaroo prang, they're markedly different.

It's a weird one, it almost looks like the beginning of a spiral dive, but I can't begin to fathom what would cause that at the base turn. 

ADS-B Exchange shows it to be within 150m or so of two previous circuits conducted by the same plane earlier that morning. Not sure if it was the same student or not, but I'm wondering if they turn Crosswind early due to a noise abatement restriction on overflying Wivenhoe Village, so rather than 500' upwind, turn, climb to 1,000, turn, they turn early causing a longer-than-normal crosswind leg, pushing the downwind leg further away from the runway than would normally be the case. Any Camden-based folks able to comment?

One thing I did note was he was 200' high throughout his downwind leg. ERSA says 1,300' but he flew downwind at 1,500.

You do realise the ADSB returns are based on pressure height? The QNH at 3pm was 1007, therefore you need to take approx 180’ off the ADSB pressure height return to get an altitude.

Reported as a a first solo and a C172 that’s been at Camden from new. 

Obviously the A-320 had the ADSB turned off. The driver of the ute had no chance

It’s good to see the Head of Safety reporting lines now reflect best practice. 

On 18/1/2024 at 10:20 AM, onetrack said:

There's plenty of camera footage available, it was all recorded and all recovered. The Roulettes and other aerobatic teams go out with a strictly rehearsed plan of aircraft movements, and there can be no distractions when you're bringing aircraft very close together at considerable speed.

The problem here was an undisciplined approach to some of the most dangerous flying you can ever indulge in, and an unrehearsed plan of aircraft movements. The ATSB graphics illustrate pretty clearly what happened - wingtips touched because the concentration was on "great camera footage", and not rigid flying discipline, with carefully preplanned, and carefully rehearsed aircraft movements.

It's only sheer good luck there wasn't a quadruple number of fatalities, and two aircraft lost, in the one mid-air crash.

Are you sure none of the operating crew had appropriate experience? Even the best of professional teams come together on occasions. 

On 16/1/2024 at 1:02 PM, BrendAn said:

i disagree. if you don't have a fear of stalls and spins you are probably over confident. my instructor was not as you say at all. i said the p92 full flap stalls scare me because of how sudden the wing drop is. done lots of stall training and that is the only one that i don't like. so please don't insult the instructor. he is a high hr commercial pilot as well as raaus.

Stalls / spins are just another manoeuvre, you need to be competent at recognising the onset and recovering before they develop. You also need to be competent at recovering from developed stalls / spins. Again I reinforce the need not to fear these manoeuvres, but respect them. 
At no time did I insult your instructor, my comment was a general one around how stall / spin training is conducted today and supported by accident stats.

On 14/1/2024 at 8:57 PM, BrendAn said:

A full flap stall in a p92 scares hell out of me. The left wing drops so fast , if you were near the ground you would have to recover it pretty quick  . Not that I have much experience yet. 

If any type of stall scares the hell out of you, you need to find a competent instructor to help you get over the fear. 
Takeoff and landing are far more risky manoeuvres than stalls at a safe height. 
I reckon the fear of stalling rubs off from instructors who also have a fear of stalling / spinning. 

On 25/12/2023 at 7:31 PM, turboplanner said:

LSALT is not important for VFR flying, because you can only fly where you can see the mountaintops, although if you're going to be flying in mining areas, Tower locations can be important because they can be in the landing strip pattern or nearby and hard to see.

 

However in a lot of IMC crashes the non-qualified pilot was able to maintain control but died by flying directly into a mountain, building etc.

IMC pilots are required to identify Lowest Safe Altitude, not for the route on the screen, but for a path 5nm each side of the direct track, so you have to survey 10 nm of mountains x the route from point A to Point B and around each airport.

 

This drawing is from CASR Part 91 General Operating and Flight Rules, Plain English Guide starting at Page 102

 

I was taught to add 500’ to the highest terrain 5NM either side of the planned track as a rule of thumb LSALT. This helps in go / no go decision making if the weather deteriorates. The sole reliance on devices for planning reduces familiarisation with route terrain.

You’re quite correct regarding the limit of 250KIAS below 10,000’. A heavy jet on departure may need to exceed 250 to fly with flaps retracted and ATC can approve the exceedance.

ATC may also approve high speed ops below 10,000 if requested by the crew.

There seems to be an increase in mid air collisions in Australia. The most recent event cannot be treated the same as the other events due to the formation aspect. 
It seems as new technology emerges, so do the number of airprox events. I suspect pilots have lost / not being taught situational awareness skills. 

ATC Recording

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

ATSB make a decision on whether to investigate, based on whether there's something new, as regards safety, to be uncovered. People still crash regularly, making the same pilot mistakes, over and over again.

 

But the circumstances here would reasonably indicate the cause behind the crash, is incapacity of the pilot. A post mortem could possibly reveal that for sure, but that's not guaranteed, either. 

 

However, the simple fact that the aircraft was being flown by a competent and experienced pilot, and came down inverted in one piece, points to pilot incapacity.

 

If any competent and experienced pilot is still functional at the controls when something goes wrong, and the aircraft is still in one piece, one would expect they would at least be able to attempt to land it, the right way up.

 

I'm not a doc, but from long experience and knowledge, I can see physical features in the pilots photo that would lead me to believe he would either have a history of heart and arterial problems, or a high chance of developing them.

Many possible causes…

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/occurrence-briefs/2018/aviation/ab-2018-124

5 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

In the AOPA vid they used 45° angle of bank, a stall speed increase of 1.2. Best glide in most light aircraft is 1.4 times clean stall speed so the stall warning should not be sounding. Regardless of why or even if the sound is a stall warning it was not a good look for a safety vid about turning back when stalling is only thing that matters.  

Stall warnings systems in many light aircraft are inaccurate, are misunderstood and relied upon way too heavily.

QNH is part of an aeronautical code covering QAA - QNZ. Similar Q codes are used in military and nautical functions. 
 

Here’s a link for your reference. 

I’m keen to see the airspace model. I reckon Camden will see a 2000’ Class C step overhead. I base this on the steps around KSA. Bankstown will be severely affected and kill any practical abinitio flight training.