Roundsounds

20 minutes ago, walrus said:

The purpose of ASIC cards is to provide a capability for control of access to aviation infrastructure. The fact that they aren't controlling much at regional airports NOW doesn't invalidate the program.

 

Try getting and remaining airside at a major capital city airport without an ASIC. Try getting an ASIC  and a job in aviation if you have a criminal record. Read the list of disqualifying conditions for an ASIC.

 

I'm going to be travelling via Ports requiring ASICs. Some of them have three strand fences that can't even keep the kangaroos out, but that isn't the point. In future, security can be ramped up very quickly at those ports - just hire the guards and build the fences. The ASIC is the bureaucratic infrastructure that supports improved security - when we need it.

Maybe so, what I’m trying to understand is what are we being protected against and how will ASICs do so?

51 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

So, that’s what’s going on! 
 

I was trying to work out why an obviously experienced pilot was asking!

An odd remark, I asked a couple of pretty straightforward questions. As stated I’ve been out of GA instructing during the introduction of ADSB and other traffic awareness devices and was curious as to what’s being trained around SA.
I find the contrast in RT at Class G airports from the early 2000s and now to be quite marked. It got me thinking as to why, it seems pilots now don’t build a mental traffic model, they rely on constant broadcasts and more recently tech devices requiring head down attention for collision avoidance. The tech devices should enhance safety, but when used inappropriately may in fact reduce safety. 
I find the practice of a taxi, line up, rolling, airborne, turning crosswind, downwind, mid downwind, base, final, short final, clear of the runway (whilst still on the flight strip) to be common broadcasts with some pilots making all of them. 

Exactly was is it the security experts are protecting the country from?

Is it;

- a 911 style event?

- smuggling illegal items through freight / baggage areas?

- a rouge Easter bunny?

or is it to support the security / bureaucrats jobs?

The last time I drove past a regional security controlled airport an access gate was wide open and unattended. 
ASICs are a wasted effort, it’s about time RAAus and AOPA made a decent effort to have a sensible alternative developed for GA / Sport Av ops. 

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

I think the best answer I can come up with is "as best one can." 

 

Actually, it's a difficult mental exercise to build an accurate (dynamic) picture of a busy circuit (even assuming incoming comms are clear, complete and accurate - quite a stretch.) And it's at a time when you're quite busy trying to avoid colliding with mother earth, yourself.  The skill requires practice.  Yet students are expected to get it right, right off the bat. And it's not only students; anyone used to a sleepy home-field can be caught short arriving at a fly-in, for example.  So yes, special training could be called for.

 

As has been suggested, hanging out at a busy strip with a handheld and observing the passing parade is a useful exercise. When I do this I'm often struck by how much chatter - and mind space - is wasted (re)assuring separation between aircraft who are actually miles apart and no factor at all. But up there, it's so easy to be spooked by the spectre of crashing into someone.  After all, you're very aware of your many blind spots - and the other limits of see-and-be-seen.  And radio talk doesn't always give us what we need for the job of building a traffic picture - relative to our own ship.

 

That's why I'm puzzled by so much knee-jerk resistance to ADSB solutions. A screen, at the merest glance, gives us a pre-made picture (relative to us); hardly any processing - or training - needed. Of course, we await universal take-up but even now we can have first class separation info from all commercial flights, at a minimum.

 

Maybe I shouldn't be puzzled, it took almost a generation for the obvious safety benefits of GPS to gain general acceptance. It took that long to overcome those early dire predictions of a descent into lazy GoTo nav practice. To me it's a form of ideology lag.

  

Anyway, Roundsounds, you're an experienced instructor, right.  Please tell us what you think.

 

How do you think the question should be answered?

 

 

I’m trying to gauge what people are taught and practice in regards to collision avoidance. I’ve been out of the GA instructing scene for quite a few years. I still fly GA and note a big increase in what I would consider unnecessary RT in class G. I still jot down call signs / type, it’s how I was trained and continue to practice. I find it helps me develop and maintain a mental picture of traffic. As you’ve mentioned, there are often comm’s between aircraft who do not pose any risk to each other and I hear routine broadcasts way in excess of those recommended, the majority of which do not increase safety.

It seems the practice of developing any type of mental picture has been replaced by overuse of RT and some dubious traffic awareness devices. Technology is wonderful if used appropriately. Many of the posts on this and other forums makes me believe there’s simply no training or desire to gain knowledge around the appropriate use and limitations of traffic awareness technology. I started this discussion in an attempt gauge the current approach to traffic awareness / collision avoidance, particularly around airports. I don’t have an opinion on how it should be done.

Lots of comments about circuit entry, I’m keen to learn how people develop and maintain their situational awareness (SA) of other traffic? Or do you rely on updated SA when you make a broadcast and hope other traffic respond? 

30 minutes ago, Bosi72 said:

Normally you'd be calling only an aircraft that you are worried about, for example you are climbing and about to turn crosswind after takeoff in a high wing aircraft, then you hear someone is joining crosswind.. It is sufficient to say "aircraft joining crosswind I am about to turn crosswind at 500ft, do you have me visual? " or something similar. 

Even better if you know the aircraft type, therefore you will say e.g. "airturer joining crosswind, etc .. ", 

or even better if you remembered a callsign e.g. "ABC joining crosswind... etc"

It all comes with practice and time..

In this example you’re saying the first you knew of the traffic was when they broadcast their crosswind entry? Wouldn’t you have heard their 10 mile inbound call with an estimate for the circuit!

I’m looking to apply for an ASIC renewal, but note you need to demonstrate an operational need to hold one. As the holder of a pilot licence you should be operating on a regular basis from a security controlled airport. I see the last edition of Sport Pilot an article mentioned there’s going to be closer scrutiny around ASICs. Given I’m not regularly operating from a security controlled aerodrome I was considering an AVID. Has anyone else tried an AVID in lieu of an ASIC and arranging for the ARO to escort them on the occasions they fly into an aerodrome requiring an ASIC? 

5 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

I think it’s taught but you’re overwhelmed with everything else going on in the learning process. I’m 3 years into my flying and early days I’d be in the car and pretend the intersection coming up had wind and landing directions along with traffic to remember. 
 

I’ve just purchased this

 

https://uavionix.com/products/pingusb/#416120cea4ad7a2c9 Brings in UAT 978 and 1090 but not weather.

 

In the USA I have Sentry. It’s ADSB into ForeFlight, USA weather  along with CO2 monitoring. Not compatible with AvPlan unfortunately.

 

Looking forward to getting it and adding to AVPlan aircraft  picture of the surrounding airspace as an adjunct to listening and building a traffic picture.

 

This product no doubt keeps going once you leave mobile coverage. I’ve just learned something while looking up how Avplan brings data in…..Cellular are blue and ADSB receiver green. 
 

from avplan….

 

Our cellular based traffic system, AvPlan Live, also includes feeds from ground based ADSB and FLARM receivers. Traffic received by these  ground units is also displayed on AvPlan EFB. If you also have an ADSB-in receiver, the traffic via the attached device will replace that received from the ground.

Traffic targets in AvPlan EFB show aircraft callsigns (where available), current altitude and groundspeed. The altitude has an arrow indicating if the target is climbing or descending.

The velocity vector indicates the position that the target will be located at in 1 minute in the future.

Targets via cellular are blue, and targets via an attached ADSB receiver are green.

Targets are not displayed if the data for the target is older than 90 seconds.

To summarise, there is no one affordable solution which will provide full coverage;

Do you receive any training on the appropriate use of ADSB devices? When I say training I mean technical and human factors type training? Or do you just work it out as you go?

5 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

At the early stages, with instructor, you will be focused on flying only, however as  progressing, you will start listening more and start building mental picture.

 

Just repeat it to yourself, e.g. foxbat on base, cessna joining xwind, seneca just took off, and try finding them visually at their positions. Good airmanship is when you acknowledge that you have them all visual.  Writing down, or generally heads/eyes down is a distraction and also pointless as in the next 15 seconds they will be at different positions, then you'll have to update notes.. 

 

You can start practice building mental picture from your home by going to e.g. www.liveatc.net or similar straming channels.

Also playing board/memory/card games, solving math problems helps with improving  memory.

Be patient and keep practicing.  

How do you remember the call signs for each aircraft if you want to call them?

Just curious as to how many people use a note pad and pen to record traffic info’? 
Also wondering if / how building a mental

picture of traffic around airfields is currently being trained and whether traffic information systems are included in any training? In particular how the systems operate and any limitations associated with them. 

You cannot do any better than Skyfuel. Their service is second to none, they’ll freight it to you. 

On 2/3/2022 at 11:21 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

That is an EXCELLENT video! Thanks! Power on stalls were a total anticlimax in the Decathlon. But I’m doing power on stalls in the Foxbat with my instructor before I do them alone. I’ve never done one in the Foxbat before! I’ll test the idea you can’t spin an aircraft without pro-spin inputs! 

What would you consider pro-spin inputs to be?

5 hours ago, Garfly said:

He's telling us that he has now progressed into aerobatic type training (upset recovery) and that even spinning, per se, is not an issue for him - in a suitable aircraft. To me, he's just admitting to a little quirk in his way of seeing/feeling things. I see no evidence that he lacks understanding (any more than the rest of us) or is in need of changing his instructor.

Maybe I’m misreading Apen’s original post. He seems scared he might stall a non spin certified airplane and end up in a spin unintentionally. I stand by my comments regarding a lack of understanding of the aerodynamics associated with a spin entry. You would need to make deliberate control inputs to enter a spin. Don’t make those control inputs and you won’t spin, if you happen to apply the inputs required to enter a spin, know the inputs required to prevent the spin developing.

The concern around stalling / spinning displayed by the majority of pilots is the direct result of poor instruction. I’ve flown with many instructors over the years who are terrified of stalling, let alone spinning. A couple of flying schools who trained instructors sent their instructor candidates to me for the “advanced stalling” sequences because the instructor trainers wouldn’t deliver the training. 

On 23/2/2022 at 6:42 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

If you spin, no problem, you just recover. If you stall, a catastrophe might happen: you might spin.

 

The above is my literal opinion and is *partially* because stalls are initially done in aircraft not rated for spins.  

If you are scared of stalling it must be through lack of understanding. There is very little to no chance of an aeroplane entering an unintentional spin to a properly trained pilot. Entry to an unintentional spin would be the result of incorrect control inputs during stall recovery, this would not happen to a properly trained / educated pilot.

You should see some instruction from a suitably experienced and qualified flight instructor to resolve your issue. 

7 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Hold your arm out straight, put the top of your hand on the horizon, the bottom of your hand is the limit of where you can glide to. Works for normal GA aircraft and their like.

Don’t try that in a Pitts, Victa Airtourer or Beech Bonanza. The rule of thumb I use in these types is to toss a house brick out the window and follow it. 

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Well, the Skyecho2 broadcasts its position, other aircraft receive it although I don’t think airspeed and altitude is sent, correct me if I am wrong. I phoned our local ATC and they did not know what an ECD was 🙂. I mentioned Skyecho and still drew a blank!!

ATC can only “see” certified ADSB equipment output. Sky echo etc are simply toys from the regulators perspective. 

31 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

Yeah, some were asking that same question when TCAS was being promoted:

 

Juan Browne (Blancolirio on YT) puts it this way  "If you think the old FAA regulation of 'See and Avoid' in visual flight conditions is adequate to avoid mid-air collisions, you're sadly mistaken. And the accident record proves this."  He goes on to relate an anecdote of his own.  "Me and a handful of others fought hard to get TCAS equipment into the air-tanker industry. And the industry fought that tooth and nail as that's very much an 'eyes outside the cockpit' sort of flying program."

 

Source:

 

 

 

This will simply create a lower level

of lookout. The Metro crew likely weren’t looking out as they were in CTA and assumed a lookout being not needed. What happens to the aircraft not fitted with ADSB out, they become invisible to the ADSB crowd. Pilots using tech for separation will spend time staring at their screens, EFIS flight instruments and written checklists at the expense of a proper lookout. 
im not against technology, but am against technology without proper training. The HF implications around this equipment is serious stuff and is simply ignored. 

32 minutes ago, jackc said:

It might also help IF ATCs could ‘see’ electronic conspicuity devices, too.

 

Like a transponder?

How much technology and procedures do people need? If the money had been equipped with Mode C the TCAS might have alerted the crew of the Metro. If the Metro Crew had maintained a lookout they might have avoided the accident. If the Mooney pilot and instructor hadn’t wandered into CTA the accident eg wouldn’t have occurred. If the Air Traffic controller had fulfilled their obligations the accident might have been avoided. 
Sometime stuff happens.

14 hours ago, Methusala said:

I have transitioned, in the past 6 months, from flying my Thruster to the club Jabiru J-170. Never before having to manage flaps this is the major change for me. So, when doing touch & go circuits, sometimes need to pull off full flap after touchdown to 1/2 flap for take-off. Why not have a detent flap switch enabling selection of full/half/no-flap relieving one of the chore of a)holding the stick, b) managing throttle and, c)holding flap switch to re-set 1/2 flap while being busy managing the take-off? And, for that matter, why is there no friction nut on the throttle? Just askin'.

Just use 1/2 flap for the approach when doing touch and goes.

When I had a flying school I banned flap retraction on the runway when moving (mitigates the risks associated with inadvertent gear retraction and ground loops) . I had a standard operating procedure to use takeoff flap when conducting touch and goes, but also taught full flap go-arounds including after touch down. The aircraft are certified for full flap go arounds.

8 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

What BS is that? (I love pet hates.)

The resultant roll from yaw is due mainly to dihedral, not one wing travelling faster than the other.

I’m talking typical GA trainer, not airplanes with swept wings.  

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

Roundsounds (and Nev et al), do you think, then, that the ingrained fear of banking when low and slow (well founded, of course, for level turns) needs to be modified when the wing is partially unloaded, as in a (coordinated) descending turn?  Or to put it another way, does our basic training get in the way of our progressing to 'advanced manoeuvring'; or simply learning to turn?

 

 

 

 

A proper understanding of the aerodynamics associated with un-coordinated flight would be a good start. The fear you mentioned is related to the lack of understanding. 
The BS taught as to why an aeroplane rolls when yawed constantly amazes me. 

9 hours ago, facthunter said:

It's hard to recall/describe what one does unconsciously. . Subtle rudder to help the aileron effect.  (anticipate adverse aileron).

   Limiting of the ALLOWED bank angle to 30 degrees may be causing skidding turn  technique to  creep in. You shouldn't be scared of doing a brief BALANCED steep turn IF it is needed.  Level figure 8's to 40 degrees using power changes correctly will sort out how well  (co-ordinated) you are flying. Nev

I would estimate at least 70% of pilots I completed tailwheel endorsements with would have completed skidding turns at some point. Most frequently on a marginal glide approach, trying to stretch the glide, minimise bank angle and away they’d go. The offenders were of all levels of experience. Whenever I had the chance we would go to altitude and see how close to a stall / spin they’d been. I hope this may have saved a life or two. 
unfortunately most current training aircraft do not permit this demonstration. The Citabria would have to be one of the best training aeroplanes produced. 

4 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Anytime you are airborne and have the stick well back you should think about the possibility of the plane stalling. Planes don't stall themselves unless they are loaded wrong. The normal reaction to the nose dropping must be resisted, similar to not raising a wing when it drops when stalled. If you are slow and low there's only POWER left.      Nev

Great advice, the other consideration / red flag being anytime you have aileron input and no corresponding roll. This is absolutely the case in the typical base / final turn spin. Many pilots are unaware of the fact they are holding off bank in these turns as the result of incorrect pro turn rudder input, resulting in a skidding turn.

On 16/12/21 at 9:29 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

I did spins today in a Super Decathlon. It turns out that spins speed up after the first couple of turns and it gets a bit physically intense. Its very different to gracefully autorotating.

 

And what about that bit when you put in full opposite rudder and stick forward and nothing happens? You just keep spinning. 😆 A second or two later, the spin starts to slow, but nobody seems to mention that bit where nothing changes for a while. 

 

And full power (180 hp engine but only 23” manifold pressure at 6000 ft) stalls? I thought the plane would do some sort of snap flip into a vicious spin but not much happened. 

 

I kept the wings level, in a stall, with the rudder for a couple thousand feet. Indicated speeds about 60 kts, and 1500 fpm. 

 

Its no humble brag that I still find stalls frightening. Like if I just hold the stick back, everything is still a bit too overwhelming to work out if what I have ended up in is a spin or a spiral. The uncertainty and waiting for a wing to drop (which is a catastrophe and must be avoided at all costs, right?) and what mysterious thing might happen next is what is anxiety-provoking as far as I can tell. 

 

Also, before I did this, I spent 2.5 months, going on about 90 rides at Movie World and Dream World so I would be game to do the stuff to make me game to stall. That was a while ago now.  

 

On reflection, now I know you can put in down elevator as soon as you put in opposite rudder in a spin, maybe you can do that in stalls. But my instructor said that if you put in forward elevator when you are inverted in the autorotation you might stay inverted. 

 

The autorotation stage is a mystery to me. And my instructor literally does not know when the stall ends and the autorotation starts. 🤷‍♂️  I brought that question up here before and no one else seemed to either.  

You’re overthinking this whole thing. Each aeroplane type behave differently, stall and spin entry / recovery procedures will be found in the flight manual.

Don’t think about down elevator, think in terms of reducing angle of attack. If you’re in an inverted spin you’ll need “up” elevator to reduce the angle of attack. 
Again don’t stress, you should seek proper instruction in each aeroplane type.