Roundsounds

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

VERY neat circuits (but you wanted me to say that didn't you.) The circuits of the guy in Sydney were nearly as good, so I'd say he was a long way past first solo.

If you listen to the BK TWR ATC recordings online, you’ll hear ATC tell POLAIR 24 it was the pilot’s first solo. 

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

If the fan stops, are you not then simply gliding, and then have to carry a landing very promptly in the best manner you can judge? As I understand it, the PA-28 pilot reported an engine failure.

Yes he did, so there’s no chance of making the runway without power on a powered approach. Unless you set up for a glide approach you won’t make the runway with an engine failure once you’ve reached the base turn position. 
as indicated elsewhere, you’re subject to other traffic and cannot guarantee spacing to make a glide approach. 
The ATC recordings state this was a first solo in Comms to POLAIR 24 when they were tasked to check in the pilot’s welfare. 

50 minutes ago, Yenn said:

If he was on final when the engine stopped why didn't he make the field. Another case of relying on power to complete the landing.

The concept of glide approaches in GA went out with Tiger Moths. I know it’s a thing with RAAus, but that goes back to 2 stroke engines and GFA instructors.

It was the pilots first solo. 

1 minute ago, plugga said:

There is video doing the rounds showing a green R44 going in, reportedly on the Central Coast today.  Looked as if things had gone wrong before the powerlines intruded.

 

The PA-28 was initially reported as first solo.😮 Seems unlikely given the number of circuits.

The PA28 was a first solo. FR24 shows a full stop and taxy for further Circuit. Also ATC recording has ATC telling POLAIR24 it was a first solo with 1 POB. 
 

The R44 came to grief at Forresters Beach. 

On 13/11/2022 at 11:50 AM, RFguy said:

Hi Bruce

Most seem to be circuit issues, but a few have happened en route. 

 

My $64 question for the audience is "what should it do when it detects a collision is likely" ?

 

I did a heap of research into midair collisions in Australian airspace, couldn’t find any enroute aside from people flying in company / formation. Most collisions occurred in CTA. 

5 minutes ago, Jabiru7252 said:

At 77 years and 80 years of age, 'staying aware' becomes pretty dismal for most. I gave away flying at 66 because I'm starting to do stupid things and forgetting to do not-stupid things.

I’ll bet you’re still driving

3 hours ago, jackc said:

IF they are too lazy to work out funding, then there is no hope of getting anything done.   All they want to do is sit at computers and go left click BUY 10 submarines from somewhere, same when buying planes,  even shovels.  Too lazy to get off our backsides and make anything except a few Bushmasters etc, at least the Ukrainians like us 🙂.  I watched our Council take 6 months to build a roundabout in Rockhampton, in the process they ripped it up twice.  Sorry, lost the faith in this country 😞 

I’m sure those at the coal face want to produce quality goods, it’s the greedy minority decision makers ruining / have ruined the country.

When these greedy individuals say the cost of labour is too high in Australia, they are really saying let’s get offshore slave labour with unsafe work practices to produce a substandard product. 
The people making these statements are those taking home 6 figure performance bonuses, bonuses paid to manage the destruction of Australian industries. 

3 hours ago, jackc said:

They have had many years to get this together, I remember all the arguments in the middle 70s when I was doing Army service at Moorebank, Sydney.  This country is hopeless at building ANYTHING…..

I would have to disagree, the country is very capable of building most things. The execs controlling the purse strings are too lazy to put together a case for funding projects, instead taking the easy bonus producing offshore options. 

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

One track I don't know what the real comparo figures would be. Some Euro servos have a massive turnover. but fuel onloads for A-380 and B 747 must be large. The fuel load  SY -Perth was 27 tons for the B727. Nev

An 380 would burn around  200,000kg SYD / LAX, a B787 a bit under 80,000kg. 
a B-Double carries about 35,000kg. 
lots a road traffic to keep up supply. 

Wow, maybe you could couple this to the autopilot and teach it how to land the aeroplane too. How about an autothrottle too?

21 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

 The post you quoted did not mention IAS. 

You were concerned about speed being less than Vy, that’d be an IAS?

Stalling has nothing to do with IAS, angle of attack dictates when a wing will stall.

1 hour ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Power + attitude = performance isn’t actually true. Power + attitude + time + equilibrium = performance would be more accurate. 

 

If you are taking off and the engine stops, and you adopt the site picture for a Vy 45 degree banked turn, you could easily stall and spin. That is because there is every chance you will be going way less than Vy! 

Still hung on IAS? Exceeding the critical angle of attack causes the stall and uncoordinated flight at the stall causes the spin. There’s a lot going on for the typical PPL holder following an EFATO, which is why it’s often best to not turn back.

13 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

As for the lag in airspeed indication, I had not thought of that. What is it? 

It depends on the airplane type. I first saw the reality of this in a Tiger Moth fitted with a vane style ASI on an interplane strut. This ASI has zero lag, starting at around 60KIAS on climb, close the throttle the ASI was still happily indicating 55, the vane just over 40.

I won’t argue with you on the attitude, but I’ve used it in anger and am here to tell the story.

25 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

 When I practiced impossible turns at height, I would be climbing at Vy, close the throttle, wait three seconds to simulate fright, then start the turn. Because I was already slower than I wanted to be, and wanted to begin a tight turn ASAP, I dropped the nose well below the horizon, then began my turn, then started raising my nose. 

 

It would take a *lot* of practice to get that right relying on external sight picture, *and* the picture would be a bit different with idling engine vs stopped vs windmilling engine because the speed at different stages in the manoeuvre would change. I never really got around to establishing a glide because I was manoeuvring the whole time. 

 

You referred to establishing a glide. Well, if you are in cruise and the engine stops, you climb, gain height, and at Vy, establish the glide. You can’t tell from the airplane’s attitude when you get to Vy because you are climbing when it happens. 

 

Like the movie title says, IAS is everything everywhere all the time. 

You do realise there’s quite a lag in the indications associated with the pitot / static system fitted to light airplanes? This leads to people wasting valuable time chasing IAS and I believe leads to LOCi accidents. If you practice learning and  establishing glide attitudes for various types of flight, wings level, 30 degrees, 45 degrees angle of bank the IAS will follow.

On 6/8/2022 at 6:15 AM, pmccarthy said:

God point about the ASI. Perhaps it should be bigger and right in your face. It doesn’t get the prominence it deserves.

IAS means very little as you load up in a turn.
You need to be able to establish a known attitude to establish the glide. Given power + attitude = performance you only need to know the correct attitude given there’s no power. 

36 minutes ago, Garfly said:

I imagine that if upset recovery training could imprint on pilots' reflexes nothing more than "In fear and doubt, don't pull back!"  then lives might be saved. Maybe even in the circuit. After all, can we not assume that most of those stall/spin fatals began with a wobble - that was somehow saveable?  

 

Hard to know for sure. The evidence of Air France 447 is not encouraging. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsch6vFlcE4

 

GA schools haven’t caught onto the P in UPRT, ie Prevention. If a pilot has the skills to recover from an upset in the circuit area, they wouldn’t have allowed the situation to develop in the first place. Laser focus on IAS and minimising bank angles without enough attention to slip / skid and a continue mindset on approach rather than a go-around bias. If only pilots would spend money on quality UPRT and less on fancy bluetooth headsets, go-pros and EFBs the accident rate would reduce. 

15 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

I agree there is no risk involved in spinning certified aircraft when done by appropriately trained pilots. I have done spins.

 

Chances of recovery from a spin in the circuit by a pilot that has had a few spin lessons would be almost zero? Let's face it no one accidentally spins in cruise flight.

 

If the the spin training makes pilots more aware of the risks of stalling in the the circuit then yes there is some benefit. The same result could be achieved by all student pilots being made to watch 20 mins of stall spin crashes as part of their licence.  Stall/ spinning to the ground = death

I couldn’t agree more with your comments around chances of recovery. Training of slow flight, stall and spin awareness, avoidance and recovery is poor to say the least. 

On 7/8/2022 at 11:49 AM, Garfly said:

Yes, which is why Perdue in the video above says we must push when we're surprised to find ourselves nose-low hanging from the straps.

But any student doing Lesson One  "Effects of Controls" will have nowhere, yet, to put that knowledge.  Insisting on it so soon would put 'em in a pedagogical spin.

In the end, all learning is self-teaching.  And no matter what your instructor or text book has said about what the elevator does, it is only your muscle memory that will determine how you act in a crisis.  And it's not your instructor who is to blame for your muscles thinking that pulling will make the ground go away.  Every $100 hamburger run you've done since passing your test will imbed that idea. As Perdue says you need to do upset training (and re-training) so that your muscles will do the right thing - quick enough - to save the day, in an emergency.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you paid attention to Perdue’s lookout, specifically the lack of it. At 10:13 he actually points at his EFB and says it’s clear! What about the airplanes without ADSB out?

6 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

I make the comment above because going out and practicing spin recovery in any aircraft to make GA flying safer makes about as much sense is shutting down two engines  in a RAAF 707.

 

Learning spin recovery for your own personal reasons, I am ok with that. 

There is less risk involved in spinning a spin certified airplane at a safe height by an appropriately trained pilot than there is during the takeoff and landing phases of flight from capital city aerodromes.
A fear of spinning is an indication of a gap in a pilot’s aeronautical knowledge.  

The fans of the hands off spin recovery or Mueller / Beggs method take note..

The only spin recovery method to train and apply is that published in the type POH / AFM. 

Sad that two keen and experienced aviators likely lost their lives as the result of an incorrect recovery technique.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/news-items/2022/spin-recovery/?fbclid=IwAR3p-ChBpKfeH2evZmTr6E07mXR95cyjOaw0zCAiCid-RIbRotd1c4UObcc

The concept of publishing all incidents is flawed. The organisation should be collating all incident reports, investigating and categorising them under headings such as phase of flight, level of experience, weather conditions and causal factors. The purpose of this method of reviewing incidents is to identify any trends, then focus on the most effective way of addressing these trends. Selected  de-identified reports relating to the concerning incidents could then be published to help with any subsequent mitigation action. This action may include online training, videos, targeted flight training, mandated AFR training or roadshow type presentation to mention a few. The current method is simply ineffective. 

9 hours ago, PapaFox said:

And then you get the likes of Mildura airport where their Terms of Use for the airport says that all aircraft shall call downwind, base and final amongst other calls. That would have been a nightmare when the pilot academy was operating there.

It’s not in the ERSA, so not enforceable. In fact it goes against the CASA recommendations and it could be argued these requirements could reduce safety under certain circumstances. 
The “alerted see and avoid” procedures rely on only making the prescribed routine broadcast, thus leaving time for any calls to prevent potential conflicts.  

Worth a read