skybum Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 OK guys, I have not flown in many RAA types Just Skyfox, Eurofox and the Jabs and I would have to say the Jab IS the worst aircraft I have ever had the pleasure (dis?) of flying. Why would someone who can make a sweet flying aeroplane get it so wrong with the controls. Brake actuation that REQUIRES you to cross hand control to get your right hand onto the brake lever in the most critical part of the landing right after touchdown where the aircraft is still just flying, read this as in a crosswind I would be loath to muck around with the stick position until after the speed has bled off a bit BEFORE using the brake. Speaking of which, is there a kit made to improve braking performance? Whilst flying having to lean foward to get left hand onto the trim and completely change your feel for the trim with right hand. I found that I could get close but not perfect and was worth of just carrying a smidge of control input than try and get that spring in the right spot. Cross handing to get to the flap switch which is past the controls over on right side with the indicator over and up high and right to distract you even more as well as carb ht. Why didn't the guy spend some time with a bit of thought for ergonomic design. Taking your hand off the control column is a no-no around T/O or LDG. Has anyone ever put a switch for flap on the control column as well as electric trim? After flying one, the layout just ruins what would be a beautiful little aeroplane. Are there any worse? :confused: (moderated under rule 2.9 - Admin) (edited back without the xxxx bit. didn't know the other word for derrier was so touchy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEON Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Have seen second flap switch wired into the central one located above left hand throttle so as to be able to use it WHILE the left hand is on the throttle/or not holding the stick. Works real well:thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 I think you'll find that it's not as bad as you think. Remember that the Skyfox you have been flying doesn't even have flaps! so therefore you're going to be up for some extra tasks no matter what. After a bit of flying in the Jab you'll realise that you don't need to use the control column after touchdown, but rather put your hand through the centre of the column and pull the brakes from there. If the flap switch is in the middle, it can be moved to the side and duplicated for 2 crew. Brakes in any aircraft with the exception of perhaps a Cirrus or similar with castoring nosewheel should be considered as a luxury. If approach speeds are correct and the approach executed correctly then heavy breaking should not be required. Jabiru brakes when adjusted correctly and with sufficient pad and un-glazed discs should provide more than enough braking power for most situations. If you are having to lean forward what seems a long way to reach for the trim I would suggest sitting with a cusion behind you. Jabiru sell thrifty little customised cushions for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Have seen second flap switch wired into the central one located above left hand throttle so as to be able to use it WHILE the left hand is on the throttle/or not holding the stick. Works real well:thumb_up: I moved the flap switch (and the carb heat) to that location in my 230 when I built it and am super happy with the result. I also note skybum's comments and while the points that are made are factually correct, they are not such deal breakers in reality. Skybum has felt the need to rip into a family of aircraft that is easily the most popular in the entire OZ recreational movement and where there are hundreds .... and hundreds .... and hundreds of owners who can't get the smile off their faces. But that is his or her right and that is why there are alternatives to buy and fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 maybe skybum is correct. There should be no problem such as he describes in a well thought out plane and the fact that there are a lot of happy pilots flying them is probably "in spite of' rather than "because of". If you buy a factory built Jab you are not allowed to alter it, but if it is home built you can fix all those defects. Personally I have never had a problem with the jab but I have only flown one about 3 times and that was at long intervals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Yea, the ergonomics aren't the best.. but, evrythings easy to reach in a skyfox because there's just no room in the things. You could probably touch your pax toes from the pilots seat.. The jab cockpit is the roomiest thing going (as far as i know). So a trade off has been achieved i spose. One of our jabs has a bad nose wheel shimmy under braking and also a creeping throttle, so after touchdown ya really need 3 hands.. I personally like the brake system, as brentc said, you just need to get used to sticking your hand through the column. In a xwind ya can hold aileron into wind and still pull the brake this way.. ps, ever tried to open a vtc on your lap in a skyfox?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pioneer200 Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 I went from training in Alpi Pioneer 200 to Jabiru J160 and the first time in the jab felt so awkward... like some strange game of twister with your hands at critical phases of flight! But after about 2 hours you get used to it and deal with it. With the Jabiru I know I am flying one of the strongest build microlights around and that is a big plus, I can"t understand why there are so few flying in NZ ,maybe only 5!! That said anyone who has had the chance to fly the pioneers will know how sweet they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEON Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 The tone that Jab stopping ability is "good" can only be by people who have not flown anything with anything approaching a partically effective method to reduce forward motion. The only thing I have been in with poorer stoppers than a Jab is a drum equiped Lightwing...and they have stoppers that are there in a visual sence only!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybum Posted October 4, 2008 Author Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hey Cap, don't shoot the messenger:hug: The J230 is very nice flying machine. It has good performance. Under the weight limitations it is severely handicapped in RAA. I can bet I could do at least two circuits an hour more than a c152 because it climbs so well. It IS a good aeroplane, it would be just fantastic if it was set out better than what is presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 There's nothing wrong with Jab brakes, you just need to know how to use them properly and the people that maintain them need to know how to adjust them correctly. The twin callipers solved some of the earlier problems and they are standard now probably on all models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 . The jab cockpit is the roomiest thing going (as far as i know). I have to chuckle when I read this. When at Oshkosh recently I counted at least 7 different aircraft that claimed to have the biggest or widest cockpit in LSA......... I didn't get the tape measure out but I would guess that about 6 of these claims must be incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 On this class of aircraft the brakes are only for LOW SPEED use. If landing in a max crosswind, only one main-wheel will be on the ground when still near flying speed. This is hardly the time to reach for the skids!! If you want to spend 50k more to buy an aircraft with electric trim......feel free. Some of us appreciate the conceptual, engineering, compliance and production related decisions faced by manufacturers. Jabiru's remarkably low selling price and market dominance suggests superior conceptual work and tough headed decision making. For example: " I want better brakes." OK. Are you willing to pay a higher initial purchase price? Are you willing to accept the weight penalty of bigger discs and calipers...meaning reduced payload, etc. Are you willing to accept the loss of speed caused by the bigger and more expensive tyres that will be required to effectively transmit the greater available braking torque to the runway without skidding? (moderated under rule 2.4 - Admin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Hey Cap, don't shoot the messenger Why not mate? They are usually the easiest targets and are often just standing there waiting to be shot. I agree with Brent, and Fred is on the money as usual. The brakes on my 230 work well and I have no complaints once I learnt how to adjust them ..... and I have to say that with my 230 @ 60 knots over the fence, the brakes only need to be used hard on real short strips. My thing rolls, slows and pulls up fine at most strips that I go to and I am totally used to the brake lever location. It just isn't an issue for me, and that brake location makes the master cylinder well position for periodic monitoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigPete Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 G'Day Skybum, I agree with you 100% about the trim, it's a right pain. The flap lever needs to be duplicated under each throttle as well. :confused: The brakes I've got used to and don't have a problem with. :thumb_up: BUT :big_grin: Where are you going to find an aeroplane like the Jabiru (without it's shortcomings?) for the same price. There isn't any - not one, zilch. :yuk: I look and lust after some of the European examples (they are finished very well) and THEN I see how much more they are. I love my Jabiru J160c :heart: - warts and all. I can afford it, I can fly it. :thumb_up: regards :big_grin::big_grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brilin_air Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 There are no problems with the Jabiru layout for controls, it is just an aircraft with character. I LOVE MY JABIRU :heart: Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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