What are the restrictions

[kth_logan]

Could I get some clarity with regards to RA aircraft and their limitations with regards to airspace.

 

Are recreational aircraft allowed to fly in controlled airspace at all, or are they restricted to Class G airspace?

 

Are RA allowed to land at GAAP (Soon to change) airports.

 

What if the RA plane was being piloted by a PPL and had a transponder and all the legal equipment.

 

Where would they be able to fly then?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Could I get some clarity with regards to RA aircraft and their limitations with regards to airspace.Are recreational aircraft allowed to fly in controlled airspace at all, or are they restricted to Class G airspace?

 

Are RA allowed to land at GAAP (Soon to change) airports.

 

What if the RA plane was being piloted by a PPL and had a transponder and all the legal equipment.

 

Where would they be able to fly then?

Hi Keith, yes can, your last paragraph is correct.-PPL, Transponder, Radio etc,etc:wave:

 

 

[kth_logan]

Response

 

Thanks for the reply

 

So flying an RA aircraft, a PPL at the controls, with Transponder and all the legal equipment would have no real restrictions with regards to airspace.

 

Is that the correct assumption.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Thats my understanding of it, the aircraft also has to have a approved engine (i think).Someone else able to confirm please?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Thanks for the replySo flying an RA aircraft, a PPL at the controls, with Transponder and all the legal equipment would have no real restrictions with regards to airspace.

 

Is that the correct assumption.

It isn't my understanding. This topic seems to be quite confusing and came up one day at the hangar. My CFI indicated that RAA registered aircraft cannot fly in controlled airspace at all. All his aircraft are otherwise compliant.

 

My understanding is that there was once a capability, with an RAA CTA endorsement, but apparently RAA pilots lost the privilege due to the poor behavior of a few. While RAA is endeavoring to get this privilege back, it is not currently allowed. [none of this latter info is first hand, so caveat emptor].

 

 

[Mazda]

Rembember there is no transponder requirement in Class G and D (and current GAAP).

 

 

[Spin]

Anyone got a definitive answer?

 

Must say from my reading of the regs I agree with Dazza and that seems to be borne out by experience related by some on the forum, ie RA registration on an aircraft is no bar to its being flown in controlled airspace, it is the pilot's licence that determines the legality of the operation. I recall there was quite a bit of debate around the subject a while ago with several people believing that the same applied to flight over 5000', whereas at the time there was a direct prohibition in place, save for the usual exceptions relating to safe operation.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

With PPL, you certainly can. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Ask anyone. (Except David's CFI!)

 

Flying around CTA myself in my SportStar, I can assure you I am not the only one by a long shot, hearing other RAA aircraft all the time. If it were illegal, surely the controllers would tell those with "numbers" the stay out instead of giving clearance? (And Mick would be writing a whole lot of "please explain" letters.)

 

You do need an "approved engine", which is basically anything factory built as an aircraft engine; Jabiru, Rotax, Lycoming, etc. A home built Suburu or VW conversion would not.

 

No Transponder requirement for GAAP/class D, but if you have it, use it. (they do have radar screens in the tower)

 

David: there never was a CTA endorsement. It was in the works and got shelved by the new CASA director. The reason is more likely he had too much on his plate at the time; the "misbehaving few" being responsible for the loss is a myth started by idiot RAA-hating trouble makers on PPRuNe.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Bass, while I agree RAA pilots and aircraft are currently flying through CTA (I have heard them many times and even asked a few later in case they had a PPL), it is definitely not legal. The controllers are just there to help - not to enforce rules. They don't ask if you're allowed to enter CTA, they just make sure it's safe for everyone to do so. They will even let you into class C without a transponder if there isn't too much else going on.

 

I wish pilots who are not allowed into CTA would stop accepting the controllers' offers. It will screw it for the rest of us if anything goes wrong.

 

I have checked before. There has never been RAAus CTA allowed.

 

An RAAus plane flown by a current PPL holder with CTA endorsement can be flown into CTA if fitted with a transponder and an approved engine.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

:confused::confused::confused:

 

Well, so far I am as confused or unenlightened about this topic as when I started reading it.

 

I'm sorry, but so many of these "is it legal to do this???" topics are full of half guesses, "I sorta remember that when I was knee high to a grasshopper...", or " a mate once told me..." responses, that I, as a total newbie, and I sorta guess others more experienced, are no more CORRECTLY informed than previously.

 

It seems to beg for a section where legal questions (height, weight, clearance allowances) are answered by an authorised respondent, who can quote relevant regulations (both CASA and RAA). I am NOT taking a shot at people who in all good faith make responses - I am lacking in the experience AND knowledge to make any valid response to the inital topic post. I dont even know what I dont know

 

What I am crying out for is a DEFINITIVE answer, if possible, rather than supposition. Maybe we need a section that expands and is corrected over time, that contains authorised answers with the relevant regs quoted to provide the basis. Then, refer any idiot newies such as myself to that section.

 

Regards

 

Gerry

 

 

[flyinghigh]

RA-Aus aircraft are permitted to enter controlled airspace so long as conditions in CAO 95.55 (paragraph 5.2) are met - see http://www.auf.asn.au/operations/9555.pdf ; same applies to GAAP/Class D aerodromes. Read the document, and all relevant referenced documents for clarification.

 

 

[Guest magcheck]

Its pretty well defined in

 

Cao 95.55 Section 5 http://www.auf.asn.au/operations/9555.pdf

 

and

 

Operations manual Section 4.06 http://www.auf.asn.au/opsmanual/4-06.pdf

 

I assume anything else would require an instrument or exemption from CASA

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Bass, while I agree RAA pilots and aircraft are currently flying through CTA (I have heard them many times and even asked a few later in case they had a PPL), it is definitely not legal.

My whole post, if you read it correctly, assumes these people doing it have PPLs.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

RA-Aus aircraft are permitted to enter controlled airspace so long as conditions in CAO 95.55 (paragraph 5.2) are met - see http://www.auf.asn.au/operations/9555.pdf ; same applies to GAAP/Class D aerodromes. Read the document, and all relevant referenced documents for clarification.

For Davidh10's benefit - refer to the identical wording in CAO95.32 for weightshift aircraft

 

John

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

<<snipped>>

David: there never was a CTA endorsement. It was in the works and got shelved by the new CASA director. The reason is more likely he had too much on his plate at the time; the "misbehaving few" being responsible for the loss is a myth started by idiot RAA-hating trouble makers on PPRuNe.

Ok, Bas. Thanks for the correction.

 

It didn't help the clarity, for me, when the RAA Operations Manual contains references to a CTA Endorsement. I previously checked that I had the same version as current, but today, I looked at the text along with it and it notes (on the web site ) that the references are "unlikely to become effective".

 

In Section 3.03 item 8 it says that holding a current CASA PPL will entitle the holder to an RAA CTA endorsement.

 

Perhaps one could surmise from this that a PPL holder can fly an RAA aircraft into CTA, however despite not being able to get the RAA CTA endorsement that didn't eventuate!

 

IMHO, if it isn't operative, then it shouldn't be in the manual as a statement of capability. That's the reason for accommodating updates.

 

John;

 

Thanks for the definitive reference to CAOs. That is clear enough after you chase down all the references.

 

 

[jetjr]

Forget the RAA CTA endorsement - never happened

 

PPL in suitable RA aircraft can use CTA

 

RA Pilot Cert holder CANNOT

 

 

[monty]

Forget the RAA CTA endorsement - never happenedPPL in suitable RA aircraft can use CTA

 

RA Pilot Cert holder CANNOT

Thank You jetjr,

Very Simply put and easy to understand!!

 

Monty

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

IMHO, if it isn't operative, then it shouldn't be in the manual as a statement of capability. That's the reason for accommodating updates.

RA-Aus neede to update the manual last year and this was , according to CASA, "just a formality". Then the whole GAAP report came in, requiring changes. Probably in a knee-jerk reaction, but understandable, the new CASA director shelved it. It was shown GAAP wasn't coping and needed change. The main use for CTA in RA would have been to go to GAAP airfields and schools setting up shop there. So it is understandable that at that time allowing more aircraft into GAAP with this endorsement didn't seem like a great idea.

Never say never, but don't hold your breath. If you want CTA now, get a PPL. It's not that hard or extremely costly for an experienced RA pilot. Just make sure you find a GA school that knows the rules and knows you don't need SPLs, GFPT, do the whole nav again, etc. All you should need is 2 hours instrument and the theory and practical test in a VH-registered aircraft. (which could be an ultralight, just one that's VH registered.)

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

There are people on Rec Flying who say they are learning at Bankstown. So, how does RA training happen in CTA airports? OK I gues if the FI has a PPL or better but how does the student go solo?

CAO 95.55 Section 7 - Approval of flights not complying with flight conditions

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I was in Cairns recently and had the opportunity to spend some time in the tower with the ATCs. Cairns ATC has everything from international Jumbos to a J120 landing and taking off.I was surprised a Jabiru would be allowed in there and the controller said they would be happy for us to land as long as we had a radio and a transponder. I thought it a bit strange at the time but emphasises that the controllers are not there to check the pilots qualifications but to handle traffic as it presents.

Its quite true - I (legally) landed a trike there a few years ago

 

 

[wags]

A definitive answer.

 

An RAAus plane flown by a current PPL holder with CTA endorsement can be flown into CTA if fitted with a transponder and an approved engine.

Slarti has it right.

 

Just get a PPL with suitable CTA endorsement and you can go where you want, when you want... no ifs, buts or conditions apply as long as you have a radio, transponder and approved engine.

 

 

[kth_logan]

Thanks for the info

 

Guys

 

Just wanted to say thanks to you all for the information.

 

Made things alot clearer for me.

 

Appreciate your comments..:thumb_up: