Thirsty Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 As the title suggest I'm curious if any Instructors or L2's are making a living out of RA work. Not really interested in people that have GA qualifications as well as RA. I'm an instructor and L2 and I do it for the love of it but I was wondering on my way home tonight whether anyone actually does this for a crust. Seems to me from reading this forum that most do it for fun or part time or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JabSP6 Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Thirsty I believe John Gordon (CFI at Emerald qld) runs his flying school as his main income. Also there are a quople of schools in Bundaberg where the CFI's are RAA only and do the same. Safe Flying JJabSP6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Thanks mate. I work for a CFI who makes his living out of his school. I was more interested in guys who work for someone though and still make a living at it. I know in GA most instructors are just building hours to get to an airline job but in RA that's not an option so do we all just do it for fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Thanks mate. I work for a CFI who makes his living out of his school. I was more interested in guys who work for someone though and still make a living at it. I know in GA most instructors are just building hours to get to an airline job but in RA that's not an option so do we all just do it for fun? The R in R A Aus stands for recreational so that might answer some of your question, there is no L in R A Aus, so doing it for the love of it may be a bit misplaced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 Too true however it is written that instructing is the only "commercial" activity allowed hence money can change hands for doing that. I'm of the opinion that a few cfis may well be making a living at this but there will be very few and probably no instructors making a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 The only real living to be made in Aviation is working for CASA or the ATSB. Failing that there are some CFI positions that pay appropriate wages however they can be pretty borderline. We're working hard with our school to change things around though and pay well above award rates to our GA and RA instructors. If they're committed full-time (5 days per week) they'll get $50-70k a year out of training. We've cut the overheads out of the business - realised the "office" is really the aircraft - not some bricks and mortar and admin staff sucking the cash out. Gives us more to pay the instructors! Problem from a business point of view is that everyone is of the opinion that RA should be much cheaper. We did the sums very thoroughly and a $60k Warrior costs only about $25-30 more per hour to run than an $85k Jabiru when you take the opportunity cost of the funds and pay an L2 properly to do the maintenance. So we make little to no margin out of RA training at the moment basically. But with low overheads at least the instructors can get paid well. I suppose from a purely business point of view the guys doing it for the love of it keep the RA prices low. Some of them are happy working for $20 a flying hour which is less than half the award rate but they're generally not about to take themselves to Fair Work Australia! Only problem for us is there are no instructors around willing to step up to the plate! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 I guess for instructors to get paid well there needs to be schools around, like yours it seems, that have enough student turnover to pay them. I do it for the love of it because if I didn't, in Adelaide at least, I wouldn't do it at all! I didn't expect your last sentence though, I thought there'd be heaps of instructors around willing to work full time. I wished I lived in Goulburn :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 To make a living you need to run the flight school like a business and not a hobby, most RAA schools aren't run as businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 A bit of our problem with finding RA instructors is the demand for GA flying really. The young(er) instructors we've got would rather be flying the Warriors than the Gazelle's - they're after hours really to help them get into other things like fire-spotting and charter and the Gazelle hours are (to put it bluntly) a waste of time for those on the GA side (GA employers will throw away a resume with nothing but RA time). The young guys also like flying the Cirrus, Bonanza, C182T and C210 when they get the opportunity. The older instructors are recently retired (work part-time) and given we pay the same money for both they'll generally choose the Warriors when they can. We advertised recently for instructors offering above award wages and free use of a work vehicle and had only a couple of suitable replies - both part-time. There's a lot of junior Grade 3's around which we aren't setup to hire - whole lack of overheads thing and they didn't display any true commitment to instructing. We'll keep beating the drum - word will spread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Don't most RAA students want to fly on the weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 You're right - it's certainly busiest on the weekends. Students are a real mix of backgrounds nowadays though. Everything from the retired to kids still at school. Weekends are a very social time also so it's more popular for that reason as well. That said the planes are booked solid on the weekends so rather than purchase another plane to work a couple of days a week we're taking appointments on weekdays. A lot of our clients have flexible work times as well so ducking out for a couple of hours is easy enough for them to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 Of course if all you want is to be an instructor in ga you still need to do a commercial license at huge cost. If casa ever change that then maybe more people will do instructing. I have no desire to do anything commercially other than instructing but theres no way I'm going to a commercial rating just for that hence I instruct in ra. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 As I see it the thing that stops people making a living from aviation is the lack of interest of the general public. In Gladstone there is no training facility as far as I know for GA or RAAus. That is in the well paid, industrial city that is powering Qld, or so we are told. I am not sure of the population, but it must be ove 30,000 and there are less than 50 pilots in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Yenn a big part of why there has been no training in Gladstone was that previous airport management was not making it easy. Our ( Gladstone Aero Club ) dealings with the new management indicates that we may be able to get some training happening here pretty soon. We also have more than 75 members of the club and frorming the club has also generated alot of interest in people learning to fly so hopefully numbers will be on the increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentreau Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Do the regulations in Australia make it possible to supplement a schools income with aircraft rental ? If so, is that a viable option ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Do the regulations in Australia make it possible to supplement a schools income with aircraft rental ?If so, is that a viable option ? Yes & I know of several schools that do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 Yep we do that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pj8768 Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 The only real living to be made in Aviation is working for CASA or the ATSB. Failing that there are some CFI positions that pay appropriate wages however they can be pretty borderline.We're working hard with our school to change things around though and pay well above award rates to our GA and RA instructors. If they're committed full-time (5 days per week) they'll get $50-70k a year out of training. We've cut the overheads out of the business - realised the "office" is really the aircraft - not some bricks and mortar and admin staff sucking the cash out. Gives us more to pay the instructors! Problem from a business point of view is that everyone is of the opinion that RA should be much cheaper. We did the sums very thoroughly and a $60k Warrior costs only about $25-30 more per hour to run than an $85k Jabiru when you take the opportunity cost of the funds and pay an L2 properly to do the maintenance. So we make little to no margin out of RA training at the moment basically. But with low overheads at least the instructors can get paid well. I suppose from a purely business point of view the guys doing it for the love of it keep the RA prices low. Some of them are happy working for $20 a flying hour which is less than half the award rate but they're generally not about to take themselves to Fair Work Australia! Only problem for us is there are no instructors around willing to step up to the plate! Dear Mr Smurf Have you ever considered becoming an instructor? Might be one way of building up some hours, although with risk of life, limb and gastrointestinal integrity. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentreau Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Yes & I know of several schools that do this. Good news, do the aircraft for hire have to be certain types, such as those acceptable for training ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Gentreau, can you tell me how expensive is flying in France? France is the most deregulated aviation in the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Good news, do the aircraft for hire have to be certain types, such as those acceptable for training ? Generally the schools would only have aircraft that can be used for training, not by regulation but for economy of scale, ie there is no point in them having an aircraft that they can't use for training. The aircraft must be factory built and must be maintained by a level 2 qualified maintainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentreau Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Gentreau, can you tell me how expensive is flying in France? France is the most deregulated aviation in the EU? I'm currently hiring a BRM Land Africa from my club and I pay 65 Euros per hour wet. The annual membership fee is 80 Euros. Annual public liability insurance is just over 300 euros. Landing fees are almost non-existant here. You can fly to a licensed aerodrome with an air-ground comms agent, 1000m of tarmac and a restaurant and pay between 3 and 7 euros. You're certainly right about the deregulation, which is probably why we have over 15,000 members in our microlight federation, and that's not obligatory, so there are certainly plenty of pilots who are not members of the federation. Registration and licencing is done by the French CAA (DGAC). We have 6 classes of microlight, including the recent addition of ultralight helicopters. (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famà_Kiss_209) Basic rule is 300kg MAUW for single seat, 450kg for dual seat, 100HP single engine, stall speed less than 65kmh. Instructors, licenced by the DGAC, are wholly responsible for signing off a new pilot, no external testing, no minimum number of hours. One theory paper to pass covering all subjects, 75% pass-mark. One medical certificate required before you go solo, valid for life. Initial licence is for solo only, after an additional 30-40 hours, you pass a check ride with an instructor for the right to carry passengers. All maintenance is the responsibility of the owner, can be done by professionals, but the owner is ultimately responsible. Interestingly, despite this total lack of control and regulation, we don't have machines regularly falling out of the sky. Probably because the owner is the one at the controls and he knows it will hurt ! (Definition of a pilot: The first person to arrive at the scene of the accident) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Dear Mr SmurfHave you ever considered becoming an instructor? Might be one way of building up some hours, although with risk of life, limb and gastrointestinal integrity. Regards I have considered becoming an instructor. My main problem is I'm still to get my damn GFPT! I've never wanted to push in front of students and due to the guys being absolutely swamped with work i only fly when there's a cancellation and no other students waiting. Many people get frustrated with not being able to get bookings. Sum total is close to 60 hours flying for me but spread over almost 6 years (might explain the slightly grouchy smurf disposition?)... We've now got an instructor doing weekday work by appointment in Goulburn and i'm first in line so at the moment things are looking very good for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 i would be fairly certain that RAA instructors employed by flying schools are well and truely underpaid and poorly paid. I'd have to agree. I know of schools paying their guys $15-$25 per flying hour. It's what's proven so immensely frustrating - we've never put our pay rates out there before but the award rate is close to double that. A part of it just seems to be instructors that don't look outside of their school to see what's really available? In the accounting field (one of my "other" jobs...) you can guarantee every accountant knows exactly how much money they could get with the firm just down the road! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 If they're committed full-time (5 days per week) they'll get $50-70k a year out of training. If I thought I could make $70k per year instructing RA, I'd probably quit my present job tomorrow! Couldn't think of anything better than training people who actually are interested in learning and want to have fun doing it. Maybe this could be part of my 'semi-retirement' plan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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