Kathy Kunz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Thank you David for taking the time to reply to my post . I do know Hayley from when she lived in Sydney. He was stoked to have been asked to give Hayley away at her marraige to Lance. Chris was so excited about learning to fly . That was his dream when he was a young man in his twentys. The purchase of his plane was a secret from us all as I believe that he wanted to surprise us by flying it down to visit us .I will certainly stay in touch and I have taken it upon myself to keep you pilots on this site in my prayers . I will call you sometime .God Bless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrayonBox Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Thank you Kathy for coming here and participating in this forum. I hope you do find closure and comfort in this difficult time. There are always a lot of if onlys, such as those concrete troughs, but unfortunately thats how it goes sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Thank you Kathy for coming here and participating in this forum. I hope you do find closure and comfort in this difficult time. There are always a lot of if onlys, such as those concrete troughs, but unfortunately thats how it goes sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Thank you for your kind reply .I guess there will be a lot of 'Ifs and whys and therefores ' in all of our lives at one stage or the other . I take comfort in all of your kind thoughts .Thank you for allowing me to participate in the forum , even though I am not a pilot . God bless and enjoy your flying . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Yes kathy, Welcome and thanks for joining us on this site. On reading the above mention of the concrete blocks laying in the grass, it reminded me of another incident that ended somewhat more positivly. Don't know if it will help you or not , but it is intended to be positive, and an indication that not all concrete blocks laying in the grass can be bad !... On an outback cattle station the owner often flew around in his Cessna 182, accompanied by his young teenage son who had a severe mental handicap. The kid had done a lot of flying with Dad over the years. They landed for lunch in front of the station house, on a short strip there. There was also a longer strip away from the homestead. Dad went in to prepare lunch, and later said that he had did two things that day that he didn't normally ever do....he left the keys in the ignition, and he turned the fuel OFF. Normal would be to remove the keys, and leave the fuel ON. As Dad was in the house the son hopped in the plane, pushed all the levers foward just as dad did, and turned the start key.!.....The engine roared to full throttle and took off across a nearby grass paddock headed directly toward a large cattle yard. Now one of two things was going to happen...either the aircraft was going to lift off, and probabily crash shortly after, or it was going to hit the cattle yards with equally bad results. Before either could occur the propeller, now spinning at full power, hit a large concrete block laying hidden in the grass, with the engine stopping at the same time, as the fuel was turned off !....the kid hopped out as if nothing had occurred. One prop tip went clean through the left wing and was never found, the other ended up lodged under the rudder pedals just below the kids' feet, after passing through the engine bay, and associated structure. As you can see not all blocks of concrete are bad !!...The father was very happy that there was one there that day. He said if it had ended badly, he would probabily have grabbed the gun and headed for the shed to make it two losses that day. After a new wing and engine /propeller the plane took off from that same strip about two months later, and as far as I know is still out there flying somewhere !.... I don't have anything else to offer you at this sad time of loss Kathy, so I hope this story may lighten your load in some small way.............................................Cheers, Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Sincere condolences to you and your family at this sad time Kathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Yes kathy, Welcome and thanks for joining us on this site. On reading the above mention of the concrete blocks laying in the grass, it reminded me of another incident that ended somewhat more positivly. Don't know if it will help you or not , but it is intended to be positive, and an indication that not all concrete blocks laying in the grass can be bad !...On an outback cattle station the owner often flew around in his Cessna 182, accompanied by his young teenage son who had a severe mental handicap. The kid had done a lot of flying with Dad over the years. They landed for lunch in front of the station house, on a short strip there. There was also a longer strip away from the homestead. Dad went in to prepare lunch, and later said that he had did two things that day that he didn't normally ever do....he left the keys in the ignition, and he turned the fuel OFF. Normal would be to remove the keys, and leave the fuel ON. As Dad was in the house the son hopped in the plane, pushed all the levers foward just as dad did, and turned the start key.!.....The engine roared to full throttle and took off across a nearby grass paddock headed directly toward a large cattle yard. Now one of two things was going to happen...either the aircraft was going to lift off, and probabily crash shortly after, or it was going to hit the cattle yards with equally bad results. Before either could occur the propeller now spinning at full power hit a large concrete block laying hidden in the grass, with the engine stopping at the same time as the fuel was turned off !....the kid hopped out as if nothing had occurred . One prop tip went clean through the left wing and was never found, the other ended up lodged under the rudder pedals just below the kids' feet after passing through the engine bay and associated structure. As you can see not all blocks off concrete are bad !!...The father was very happy that one was there that day. After a new wing and engine /propellor the plane took off from that same strip about two months later, and as far as I know is still out there flying somewhere !.... I don't have anything else to offer you at this sad time of loss Kathy, so I hope this story may lighten your load in some small way.............................................Cheers, Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Thank you Maj . That was a good outcome as you say for that father and son .Your story did lighten my load . Cheers and all the very best for the New Year 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrayonBox Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Kathy. Just a tip - when you do a reply you can also type directly underneath the quote (in the same box) so it keeps it all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Sincere condolences to you and your family at this sad time Kathy. Kathy. Just a tip - when you do a reply you can also type directly underneath the quote (in the same box) so it keeps it all together. Thanks for the tip . I hope I have got it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Sincere condolences to you and your family at this sad time Kathy. Thank you so much . We are trying to move on as best as we can Happy and safe New year . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I checked the ATSB site and on the 18th of December the ATSB published an update on the crash http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-149.aspx The report describes an understandable scenario; they appear to have had some control, enough to arrest the rate of descent and set up for a landing into a very short paddock. From the photos, the aircraft post impact resting place looks horrific, absolutely no chance of survival in that roll over and resultant fire. If you look at the photos on the link the engine looks to be to have been not running at the point of impact (props bent back with no aggressive impact wear marks). One scenario would have to be an engine failure followed by a emergency landing that went wrong. According to the report the aircraft lost the left wheel and nose wheel on impact which would indicate a very hard landing. I can only imagine that if the aircarft had not tripped over on the concrete obstructions (not mentioned in the report) the accident was potentially survivable. Even if a fire had consumed the aircraft, they would have likely been able to exit if they escaped injury. One of the substantial hazards of low wing designs where the roof canopy must open to escape is the potential inescapable circumstances when they flip over on their back. Sadly that day the circumstances dished out an inescapable scenario for my mate Chris and his mate Michael. Rest my brother, we will keep an eye out and a helping hand for Ryan and Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I checked the ATSB site and on the 18th of December the ATSB published an update on the crash http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-149.aspxThe report describes an understandable scenario; they appear to have had some control, enough to arrest the rate of descent and set up for a landing into a very short paddock. From the photos, the aircraft post impact resting place looks horrific, absolutely no chance of survival in that roll over and resultant fire. If you look at the photos on the link the engine looks to be to have been not running at the point of impact (props bent back with no aggressive impact wear marks). One scenario would have to be an engine failure followed by a emergency landing that went wrong. According to the report the aircarft lost left wheel and nose wheel on impact which would indicate a very hard landing. I can only imagine that if the aircarft had not tripped over on the concrete obstructions (not mentioned in the report) the accident was potentially survivable. Even if a fire had consumed the aircraft, they would have likely been able to exit if they escaped injury. One of the substantial hazards of low wing designs where the roof canopy must open to escape is the inescapable circumstances when they flip over on their back. Sadly that day the circumstances dished out an inescapable scenario for my mate Chris and his mate Michael. Rest my brother, we will keep an eye out and a helping hand for Ryan and Jordan. David thank you for this input. I had gone into the ATSB site and had read the update for the 9th and then on the 18th but having no aviation knowledge I can only make a guess . I did not know that the only means of escape in the Trinidad was through the roof canopy . Sadly that sealed it for them . Thank you for thinking of Ryan and Jordan . Please keep me in the loop . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 No, the canopy is not a complete trap at all, the plane will always come to rest leaning to one side or the other and although you may not be able to open the doors you can always break out of one side or the other if you are OK after the flip. Kathy, I lost a very dear person to a crash and where fire was a factor and it gave me nightmares for a long while and as part of the healing process I researched a lot about the circumstances of such an incident. Understanding it better helped me to realise that the scene of horror that I had imagined probably wasn't like that at all. Without going into any details or trying to guess what the condition of the crew was following the plane flipping just keep in mind that they wouldn't have known anything about the fire. The fire consumes all the oxygen in the vicinity very quickly and in combination with the smoke they would have been asleep in a few seconds and not known anything more. I hope it helps you to know that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 No, the canopy is not a complete trap at all, the plane will always come to rest leaning to one side or the other and although you may not be able to open the doors you can always break out of one side or the other if you are OK after the flip.Kathy, I lost a very dear person to a crash and where fire was a factor and it gave me nightmares for a long while and as part of the healing process I researched a lot about the circumstances of such an incident. Understanding it better helped me to realise that the scene of horror that I had imagined probably wasn't like that at all. Without going into any details or trying to guess what the condition of the crew was following the plane flipping just keep in mind that they wouldn't have known anything about the fire. The fire consumes all the oxygen in the vicinity very quickly and in combination with the smoke they would have been asleep in a few seconds and not known anything more. I hope it helps you to know that. Thank you for sharing your loss with me . I am having nightmares too and your explaination of the oxygen being used makes sense and that is what I have been praying for that that they would have "gone to sleep" quickly . I am reaching out and trying to find out about the accident and came across this site and saw that the crash was discussed and decided to register . I am glad I did because you guys are helping me understand . Please accept my sincere apologies if I have brought back bad memories for you . Thank you so very much once again for sharing.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 ...... Please accept my sincere apologies if I have brought back bad memories for you..... No need for any apologies, there are no bad memories any more, gladly with time we heal and become stronger for the experience, as you will. Sorry for you at the moment, be strong as your brother would have wished and keep in mind that your pain will pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 No, the canopy is not a complete trap at all, the plane will always come to rest leaning to one side or the other and although you may not be able to open the doors you can always break out of one side or the other if you are OK after the flip.Kathy, I lost a very dear person to a crash and where fire was a factor and it gave me nightmares for a long while and as part of the healing process I researched a lot about the circumstances of such an incident. Understanding it better helped me to realise that the scene of horror that I had imagined probably wasn't like that at all. Without going into any details or trying to guess what the condition of the crew was following the plane flipping just keep in mind that they wouldn't have known anything about the fire. The fire consumes all the oxygen in the vicinity very quickly and in combination with the smoke they would have been asleep in a few seconds and not known anything more. I hope it helps you to know that. Alan, Thanks, that is very constructive and helpful. Looking at the basic information in the ATSB report, the engine was found some 13 metres beyond the wreck location. What kind of deceleration forces would it take to rip the engine out basically intact? I am trying to estimate the speed at which they hit the concrete troughs, (if that is what ripped the engine out). As can be seen from the photograph, the engine is undamaged by the fire. Do we know what speed the Trinidad stalls at, because that is probably the speed at which they impacted the ground on the initial impact and continued through the fence. If they were not stalled at initial impact I would have thought they would have bounced some distance before re-impacting the ground. 170 metres is not enough to stop the Trinidad with no brakes; and with no left wheel or nose wheel there would have been no directional control either. It looks like a high initial impact emergency landing with considerable misfortune attached, but we will possibly never know what control the pilots had at the time. I wonder if we will ever know if it was engine failure that forced them down or some kind of control difficulty. Certainly it appears the stall spin scenario has been eliminated by the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Conservation/dissipation of energy is not really my field David but the engine mount is one of the strongest parts of the structure so the impact could likely have been the fatal aspect of the crash I would think. I had a friend with a Trinidad, it was a long while ago and I seem to remember the Vso was about 60kt ish - I just googled it, the TB21 is 54kts and the TB20 is 61kts, not sure which we're talking about here. Either way it's a high speed and a small paddock... (Alan :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 No need for any apologies, there are no bad memories any more, gladly with time we heal and become stronger for the experience, as you will. Sorry for you at the moment, be strong as your brother would have wished and keep in mind that your pain will pass. Thank you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trishok Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Thank you for sharing your loss with me . I am having nightmares too and your explaination of the oxygen being used makes sense and that is what I have been praying for that that they would have "gone to sleep" quickly . I am reaching out and trying to find out about the accident and came across this site and saw that the crash was discussed and decided to register . I am glad I did because you guys are helping me understand . Please accept my sincere apologies if I have brought back bad memories for you . Thank you so very much once again for sharing.. Thank you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trishok Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Dear Kathy, My sincere sympathy is with you and your family. This is belated because I have only read this thread today after a long absence from looking into the forum. I am not a pilot, but am a grandmother of a young pilot who killed himself and his mate, at Tatham, not far from where your brother died with his mate, near Lismore. This accident was on 7th May, 2010. Michael was 27, and his passenger, Josef, was only 20. I joined into this forum for similar reasons as yourself, to try to understand what happened, and how the tragedy could have been avoided. The coroner found the accident could have been avoided and was due to my grandson's gross negligence in doing aerobatic tricks that he was not qualified to do. I also share a Christian faith with you and I pray that you will be comforted by the certainty that God's promises will be fulfilled in His coming Kingdom where there will be no more tears and peace and love will surround you. Shalom Trish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Dear Kathy,My sincere sympathy is with you and your family. This is belated because I have only read this thread today after a long absence from looking into the forum. I am not a pilot, but am a grandmother of a young pilot who killed himself and his mate, at Tatham, not far from where your brother died with his mate, near Lismore. This accident was on 7th May, 2010. Michael was 27, and his passenger, Josef, was only 20. I joined into this forum for similar reasons as yourself, to try to understand what happened, and how the tragedy could have been avoided. The coroner found the accident could have been avoided and was due to my grandson's gross negligence in doing aerobatic tricks that he was not qualified to do. I also share a Christian faith with you and I pray that you will be comforted by the certainty that God's promises will be fulfilled in His coming Kingdom where there will be no more tears and peace and love will surround you. Shalom Trish Dear Trish , Thank you for your kind words and sharing with me . My deepest sympathies on the loss of your grandson and his mate . What a loss - so young . We are yet to receive the coroners report which we have been told will take around 3 -6 months. Most of the time I want to know what caused the accident and some of the time I do not want to know as I fear that the the report might cause more pain . My daily prayer is that God was merciful when the impact happened and that Chris and Michael did not suffer . We rest on that hope and know for sure that Chris is at peace with his Maker whom he served faithfully . Once again thank you and God Bless Kathy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trishok Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Kathy, Dear Trish , Thank you for your kind words and sharing with me . My deepest sympathies on the loss of your grandson and his mate . What a loss - so young .We are yet to receive the coroners report which we have been told will take around 3 -6 months. Most of the time I want to know what caused the accident and some of the time I do not want to know as I fear that the the report might cause more pain . My daily prayer is that God was merciful when the impact happened and that Chris and Michael did not suffer . We rest on that hope and know for sure that Chris is at peace with his Maker whom he served faithfully . Once again thank you and God Bless Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trishok Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Kathy, God is merciful.. Remember, He knows and cares when even so much as a sparrow falls from the sky, so how much more so for Chris and Michael on that day. I believe they would have been asleep in the twinkling of an eye and did not suffer. Continue to rest on that Hope you have, because we know for sure that Hope does not ultimately disappoint us. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things, unseen. The Lismore Coroner conducted a thorough fact-finding inquest into Michael and Josef's deaths, which took a long time. The Inquest took place exactly two years following the accident. There were a couple of threads on this Forum, first about the tragedy and secondly reporting after the Inquest. The Coroner's Report is published on the internet as it is for the general public to read. The boys' names are Michael James O'Keeffe and Josef Hainaut. May God continue to uphold you as you face each day. Shalom Trish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Kunz Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Kathy, God is merciful.. Remember, He knows and cares when even so much as a sparrow falls from the sky, so how much more so for Chris and Michael on that day. I believe they would have been asleep in the twinkling of an eye and did not suffer. Continue to rest on that Hope you have, because we know for sure that Hope does not ultimately disappoint us. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things, unseen.The Lismore Coroner conducted a thorough fact-finding inquest into Michael and Josef's deaths, which took a long time. The Inquest took place exactly two years following the accident. There were a couple of threads on this Forum, first about the tragedy and secondly reporting after the Inquest. The Coroner's Report is published on the internet as it is for the general public to read. The boys' names are Michael James O'Keeffe and Josef Hainaut. May God continue to uphold you as you face each day. Shalom Trish Thanks Trish . Yes , God is merciful . Please keep our family in prayer , especially his wife Donna & sons Ryan and Jordan and my Dad . God Bless Kathy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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