Flight Following

[Alpi]

Hi Captain

 

I am no expert on flight following, only used it a few times and have never been refused by ATC when I've requested it.

 

To answer your question in the case of Bris to Bundy, Brisbane Radar terminate when they can no longer recieve your Transponder signal. You can request handover in which case they hand you over to the next area radar and you just continue on.

 

Yes my SP6 is RAA registered.

 

I believe that by using flight following we are enhancing our safety and have a very strong case to be where we are namely above 5000. After all it's the powers that be that introduced Flight Following and encourage us to use it so we are really just using whats available to us.

 

I think it's possibly one of the most underutilised facilities as far as RAAus is concerned and certinally an area of leverage should we ever want to get the 5000 ft limit raised in the future.

 

Regards Greg

 

 

[Captain]

Onya Greg

 

I agree with you that this adds to our safety.

 

Whenever I used to take my boat up the coast I always used the Coast Guard's similar system and they just handed you, or rather you handed yourself, from one station to the other.

 

I have been searching for procedural info on Flight Following but can't find too much.

 

How have you found the Flight Following heights elsewhere. Do you mostly need to be above 5000 to log in?

 

On radio procedures, do you use whatever is the local ATC frequency and just monitor that all the way ..... or do you come back to local CTAF frequencies etc and let the transponder do all of the work?

 

Coming into Bundaberg for example, do you need to be on the ATC frequency to acknowledge the end of Flight Following, before switching to the Bundaberg CTAF frequency?

 

Sorry for all the Q's. Hope they are not too dumb. Look forward to your further advice.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Captain]

Greg

 

Further to my last post, I have dug out the charts for your area and perhaps I am getting confused between Flight Following and Flightwatch, as it is Flightwatch I have most trouble in finding "procedures".

 

What frequency do you use to request and terminate Flight Following?

 

Do you ever use 119.4 Flightwatch Bundaberg or are you using 124.6 BNE Centre?

 

And as you head north out of Brisbane I see that you have a few CTAF's to manage.

 

If you would be so kind as to give me an example of how you manage your calls and frequency changes on a Brizzy to Bundaberg flight it would go a long way to making this simple cockroach understand or even grasp it.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Alpi]

Hi Geoff

 

The way I understand it Flightwatch provides inflight met information, information on restricted area activity etc on request from you as the Pic. They're really providing information that you couldent obtain on your preflight and or updating information for you. Well thats what I've used them for in the past anyway.

 

Flight Following is a ongoing radar information service available in E and G class airspace which includes us in G class but below 5000 you would probably loose coverage very quickly assuming youre identified at all. At 5000ft coverage is lost before Maryborough, at 10 000ft you'd have coverage all the way from Adelaide to Cains coastal, I think.

 

The primary purpose of flight following unlike flight watch, is to provide information on conflicting traffic, and to help you avoid Class C and D airspace and restricted areas. So it does not mean if you have flight following you have automatic clearance through C and D airspace, but you will be advised if you get too close.

 

As far as Frequency"s are concerned I've used Brisbane Centre frequency 129.0 and the radio call would be as follows;

 

Brisbane Centre jabiru ....... request flight following

 

If it's available the responce;

 

Jabiru..... go ahead

 

Jabiru...... 10 miles west of Maroochy climbing through 4500 for 5500ft on a flight from Caboolture to Bundaberg

 

ATC will allocate a squark code

 

Set it in the transponder hit enter id

 

ATC will advise they have you identified and you're on youre way.

 

If you change frequencies to say a CTAF like Harvybay without advising ATC flightfollowing will be terminated. At 5500ft you overfly the CTAF outside of their airspace and you'll be notified by ATC of conflicting traffic anyway. Having said that the onous is still on you to maintain a good lookout at all times. Any level changes must be reported to ATC as well.

 

You can cancel at any time and if ATC can no longer track you or you leave the controller's area they will notify you with Radar service is terminated. When they do you can request hand-off to the centre you're entering and ATC will ask the next controller to continue your service and instruct you to change frequency.

 

I think Airservices must have something on their site that will probably explain it better. I got the info off a mailed handout about 2 years ago.

 

As far as heights are concerned 5500ft and above enables you to overfly most CTAF's and maintain radar coverage in order to utilise flightfollowing.

 

Geoff please verify my ramblings I"m not real cluee when it comes to airspace and would hate to give you a bad steer. I just feel any contact with ATC is good contact and when you know they have you identified and you have coms established with them the entire flight seems safer and more professional.

 

Regards Greg A

 

 

[Guest J430]

Just a tip, before you leave put a plan in the system even if its 100% outside CTA, flight following will be much easier for them to pick you up quickly etc. If you are not in the system it requires a bit more work and may be easily denied. I have once been knocked back, but 30 min later accepted.

 

yes must be in Radar coverage and TX equipped. Also you must stay with them, thats the BNE CEN freq. Use an ERC chart and right down all the frequencies before you go for where you will be at what part of your trip. They will say......XXX contact me now on 120.9 etc....and hand you over to themselves on the same freq, or maybe hand you to the next sector controller.

 

Great service indeed! But do them a favour, fly your levels and maintain them, especially above 5000'.

 

J;)

 

 

[vk3auu]

From Greg "I think it's possibly one of the most underutilised facilities as far as RAAus is concerned and certinally an area of leverage should we ever want to get the 5000 ft limit raised in the future."

 

Perhaps I am being too cynical in my old age, but my impression is that if a whole raft of Ultralighters start using the system, then someone, namely the rest of us will be expected to make a contribution towards the provision of the service. It might also make the powers that be think that just because some of you have transponders, there is no reason why all of us shouldn't have them.

 

I still haven't seen anything in the regs which allows us to fly above 5000 feet just because Flight following is available. Perhaps if enough people put up a case we might get that priveledge, no doubt as an addition to the cross country endorsement, but for the moment I think you are pushing your luck. Use FF if you will, but stay below 5000 unless it really is "Operationally necessary" and by that I don't mean necessary to stay in contact with FF.

 

David

 

 

[Guest J430]

Here Here!

 

there is a thread running already about the 5000' rule and about time it was discussed more.

 

Only point i would argue is all aircraft should have a transponder and calibrated encoder. I beieve that we all should have the subsidised ADSB transponders.

 

Especially those going into areas where the heavy metal operate.....don't get me going, Ian may not have enough space.......

 

Cheers and safe flying

 

J

 

 

[vk3auu]

ADSB

 

J430 "I beieve that we all should have the subsidised ADSB transponders."

 

Yea and amen to that.

 

David

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

I'd have to disagree with you J430. The entire idea of ultralights is keeping it simple. I don't have a radio in my aircraft let alone a transponder and I would not even consider ADSB. If I did, I wouldn't be able to get in the aircraft with all the extra gear and weight. If you want to go into GAAPs and International airports jump in a GA machine. If you want to go for a fly have some fun and not pay through the nose fly RAA. Thats why the AUF came about many years ago, lets not forget that and try and make us GA.

 

Adam.

 

 

[vk3auu]

GA vs RAAus

 

GSA, Captain et al,

 

The alternative is of course already there if you want/need to fly above 5000 feet and use flight following quite legally. Register your aircraft as GA and get a GA licence. I believe that is what Brentc has done. That way your Jabiru 230/430's will also be legal up to 750 kg MTOW. I think I have those numbers right.

 

David

 

 

[Captain]

The alternative is of course already there if you want/need to fly above 5000 feet and use flight following quite legally.

David

Thanks David,

 

I, for one, am well aware of those numbers and that option.

 

But we don't have to be VH registered to talk about it here ............ or should we be?

 

Please clarify your note David. Are you asserting that the use of Flight Following or the use of 5000 ft and above during cross-country flights is "Illegal" for RAA registered aircraft?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Captain]

I'd have to disagree with you J430. The entire idea of ultralights is keeping it simple. I don't have a radio in my aircraft let alone a transponder and I would not even consider ADSB.Adam.

Adam

 

I disagree slightly. One of the great things about the RAA is that it successfully covers a very broad range of aircraft and interests. And most of all a wide range in the way that the members use their aircraft while still enjoying the experience.

 

But I would make 2 observations:

 

1 I believe that the use of radio is a great boosts to situational awareness and therefore safety. I can understand not using or needing it if you are operating off your own strip in the middle of nowhere, but I really can't understand & don't support the non use of radios at any busier strips.

 

2 For those interested in cross-country travel, surely a feature like Flight Following is a great boost to safety. Although I did note David's earlier note about the use of this feature if we all did it. But I wonder what is the real attitude of the providers of Flight Following. Would they really see that as a good or bad thing?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Captain]

The way I understand it Flightwatch provides inflight met information, information on restricted area activity etc on request from you as the Pic. They're really providing information that you couldent obtain on your preflight and or updating information for you. Well thats what I've used them for in the past anyway.Regards Greg A

Greg

 

Just one more Q about Flightwatch if I may.

 

Do you just call them up and advise your route/location and ask for latest data on Met, Notams and Restricted Areas etc, or do you need to have something filed with them beforehand?

 

In your experience, how busy are those Flightwatch frequencies?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Matt]

G'day Geoff,

 

You don't need to have anything filed to use Flightwatch, just call them up with your request. In my experience they're generally pretty quiet and I've always had pleasant dealings with the guys & gals operating this service.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt.

 

 

[Yenn]

I think you will find that Flight Following is on an as available footing ie you can get it if the controllers are not too busy

 

 

[Alpi]

Hi Geoff

 

As Matt says, there's no logging of a flight plan, you could call them up overhead your homefield assuming it's in range and ask for the area QNH but mostly they're there to supply information that for whatever reason was not available or accessable to you on preflight and to update inflight information.

 

Again as Matt said they usually quick to respond and I've always found them a pleasure to deal with.

 

If you need to divert would be a good example,could result in you needing updated information on weather, restricted areas etc.

 

Regards Greg A

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Just in case anyone is / was confused, the 'Flightwatch' people often look after you with 'Flight Following,' however whoever you got Flight Following from will just hand you on to the next guy as others say.

 

Don't be too concerned about fading out of radar coverage as once you start the flight-following service then they automatically lodge a SAR time for you so therefore you MUST cancel your SAR time before switching to CTAF. When using flight following you must be very careful to make sure that

 

If you don't have a transponder and you aren't too sure about flight following but you want to be 'looked after' then consider logging a SAR time instead. The service (along with flight following) is free at the moment and hopefully will remain.

 

Captain, I don't think you should be asking them for the latest Notams as it's a requirement for you to have them with you or atleast be aware of them.

 

David, 700kg's MTOW for the might J400 and J430.

 

 

[Alpi]

Hi Brentc

 

I could be wrong but this is my understanding.

 

Whoever looks after you will only "hand-off" if you request it, it"s not automatic.

 

If you do not submit a SAR time before takeoff and then use flight following ATC do not lodge one for you and consequently no need to cancel. However if you did lodge a SAR time, termination of flight following by either yourself or ATC does not cancel your SAR time so you would be required to cancel it.

 

Flight Following is just a Radar Information Service.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards Greg A

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Almost Greg, the Flight-Following process automatically lodges a SAR time with you, whereas ATC don't, which is why you have to be REALLY careful to make sure you cancel it when landing in a CTAF as I once found out when they were chasing me after some mild confusion. The 'hand-over/off' process was merely a figure of speech regarding you moving from one area to the next sector controller. As you say there's no hand-over to ATC as a clearance must be gained to enter CTA even if you are operating under flight following. When operating in CTA it's almost like the Flight-Watch are completely seperate and don't talk to ATC, in fact they are probably in a different state.

 

In an ideal world the departure controller would hand you to flight watch for flight following who will then pass you back to the approach controller, all under the one clearance with the one code. It is also unsual during flight-following for you to be offered a squawk code as 1,200 is usually enough once they 'tag' you. That is however only if you haven't departed controlled airspace as if you are in CTA then you'll keep the current assigned code.

 

 

[Alpi]

Hi Brent

 

Just phoned Airservices who put me through to briefing and I spoke to a lady by the name of Karrin who confirmed for me that no SAR time is raised by the sector controllers when you request flight following so there is nothing to cancel if you havent lodged one yourself.

 

Sorry I am going to have to take their word for it but pleased to be able to clear this up.

 

Regards Greg

 

 

[Kaz]

I just spent 30 minutes typing a long winded response and then timed out and couldn't post it!!!!

 

So now my short response is:

 

FLIGHTWATCH and FLIGHT FOLLOWING are two totally different services.

 

Information on Flightwatch Refer to API GEN 3.3 Section 2.11

 

Information on Flight Following Refer to AIP GEN 3.3 Section 2.16

 

http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/aip/gen/3_3_1-24.pdf

 

This should answer everyone's questions.

 

Cheers,

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Greg, I'll have to further clarify. I probably need a better word other than 'SAR' time. Of course you realise that with flight following you may only be contacted during every hour of your flight (inlike ATC) which is why you must be careful to 'cancel' your 'flight following' service and to make sure you clearly request for the service to be cancelled. I apologise as I made it sound like you have to cancel your SAR time when I said the following 'careful to make sure you cancel it when landing in a CTAF.'

 

If you go ahead and change to CTAF without cancelling flight following and you are at your planned destination AND visible on radar you will have failed to arrive and they will come looking for you. This is why it's also important to have lodged a flight plan if you can as they will then have your phone number on record which might save an expensive helicopter trip.

 

It might not sound logical however if you arrive at your destination and tell them that you are changing to CTAF and they don't hear back from you with words to the effect of 'CANCEL flight following' then your details are then passed to SAR and an uncertainty phase is declared. If they can't contact you because you don't have your phone number in a flight plan and there's nobody at the airfield to call to check if you have arrived, then expect a helicopter overhead shortly or the local plods to arrive and check that you are safe and well and not stuck somewhere up a tree.

 

Sorry to confuse anyone.

 

 

[Kaz]

Excellent explaination Brent.

 

I was hoping to have written the same sort of thing but I got too confused with my own version!!

 

 

[Captain]

Dear All,

 

That's been very entertaining as well as illuminating.

 

I'm glad I asked the question.

 

Just a postscript ..... to get back to my original question to Greg, taking your Caboolture to Budy flight as an example, if Flight Following lose your transponder signal because you are too low or approaching Bundy, I assume that they will try to cancel the coverage by radio and you therefore need to acknowledge, or else they will assume the worst in the area where the signal went off the screen. Is that correct?

 

And a sub-postscript ..... what tolerance do Flight Following allow you in maintaining the level?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Sorry to intervene Captain, however I would suggest that even if you lose transponder coverage you would still be under the flight following banner and as such would need to cancel your flight following as I said earlier, once you arrive at the destination. So it's kind-of a pseudo SAR time, if that makes sense. Transponders frequently fade in and out so there would be no reason to cancel your flight following or ATC clearance. I'd suggest that coming in on descent would potentially be the most dangerous situation when you actually need the service the most.

 

As for maintaining level - because it's not a 'clearance' as such, you can do what you want, however they will note the change and call you accordingly. Not knowing exactly how it worked at the time I recall receiving a radio call resembling the following. 'Zulu Mike X-Ray, you seem to have drifted up to 8,500ft there (from 7,500ft), do you wish to remain at that level? and if so, there is no observed traffic in your area.'