Flight Following

[Captain]

Thanks Brent.

 

Intervene all you like, mate.

 

Does what BC has said here agree with your experience Greg (GSA)?

 

Regards Geoff

 

(PS ... I see that this forum has made the Captain a "Groupie").

 

 

[Admin]

(PS ... I see that this forum has made the Captain a "Groupie").

Captain (aka Groupie)

the user ranks are:

 

0 Pilot Officer

 

20 Flying Officer

 

50 Flight Lieutenant

 

100 Squadron Leader

 

200 Wing Commander

 

400 Group Captain

 

750 Air Commodore

 

1,500 Air Vice Marshal

 

2,500 Air Marshal

 

5,000 Air Chief Marshal

 

 

 

BUT BUT BUT, sorry to burst the bubble but I didn't expect the forums to be as popular as they are so perhaps I may have to stretch them out a bit which could cause a few to be "demoted" - or would that cause a massive and severe bombardment from The Recreational Flying Air Force onto HQ

 

Some more Statistics:

 

Newest member to the forums [ozplod]

 

Record online users 338 (30-06-07 07:34 AM)

 

Top poster [ian - 3401]

 

Most replied to thread [J230 @ YSWG]

 

Most viewed thread [J230 @ YSWG]

 

Most popular forum [General Discussion]

 

Top 10 Posters:

 

Ian 3,401

 

Darren Masters 1,236

 

chris 1,100

 

turtle 862

 

Ultralights 619

 

PaulN 538

 

Yenn 438

 

Captain 402

 

slartibartfast 386

 

brentc 380

 

 

[Captain]

G'day Ian

 

I meant to say that "the thread", not Forum, had elevated me to Groupie.

 

What epaulettes do I order from the Shop for that?

 

I understand the promotional system.

 

I also note that your rank is past the "Vice" stage. Why is that? Getting too old or are your hands (dare I say fingers) too tired from all that typing?

 

The old saying is that everybody is promoted to one level above their natural ability, so I expect to be demoted ... all the time.

 

Feel free to adjust them all, just leave us Groupies where we are.

 

But seriously, why do you need to? You're the only one that is anywhere near the top and you can always add an "MBE" level at 7,500 and then a level at 10,000 where you go direct to the House of Lords .................. or maybe 10,000 posts can make that person the boss of CASA.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards Geoff

 

 

[Admin]

maybe 10,000 posts makes you the boss of CASA.

...or a Middo Look-a-like

 

 

[Matt]

Sorry to intervene Captain, however I would suggest that even if you lose transponder coverage you would still be under the flight following banner and as such would need to cancel your flight following as I said earlier, once you arrive at the destination. '

A correction here, if you are out of radar coverage your flight following service (as with any radar services) will be terminated by ATC. If you come back into coverage the service may be re-instated.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt.

 

 

[Alpi]

Geoff it's been my experience that everytime before Maryborough the sector controller has terminated the service due lack of coverage so I've never been in the position where I've had to terminate it.

 

At 5000 there's a gap in radar coverage that starts before Marybourgh and could be maybe 100 miles north before Rocky sector becomes available. Not 100% sure of the distances. I've always maintained the altitude I selected so as Brent says I guess they'd prompt you if you deviated excessively. You are required to advise of track or altitude changes to ensure you recieve accurate information.

 

Brent your comment about being contacted every hour I don't understand cause the time I am in contact and using flightfollowing is probably less than an hour and in that time I have been notified of traffic sometimes 2 or 3 times.

 

I guess the best way to find out how it works is to use it. ATC really are quite helpful, I've never been knocked back requesting Flightfollowing.

 

Regards Greg

 

 

[Guest brentc]

A correction here, if you are out of radar coverage your flight following service (as with any radar services) will be terminated by ATC. If you come back into coverage the service may be re-instated.Cheers,

 

Matt.

Unless you have an ATC code from a previous clearance!

 

Who said flying was simple?

 

Note - this is from experience and not the regs.

 

Seems to crazy that they would drop flight following over a remote area just because they can't see you any more. Seems that this would be the most appropriate place to have it.

 

 

[Matt]

Crazy but true, Airservices can't offer you or continue a radar service if you're no longer on radar. This not only applies to flight following but any radar service - happens pretty regularly around the south east coast if you're below about 4000', radar services are terminated an re-initiated as aircraft go in and out of radar coverage around this area.

 

 

[Captain]

But let me go back to post #24 please.

 

If you have Flight Following and they lose your transponder signal, for whatever reason, and for whatever other reason they do not have your acknowledgement or advice of cancellation of the coverage, surely the 1st thing ATC will do is assume that you may have hit something hard.

 

If that is not the case, how long will it take them to initiate a response or what use is it?

 

Or is there a grace period where you have time to get in touch or reappear on their screen, in such circumstances before a search is initiated?

 

Regards & sorry to be a pain in trying to understand this. Geoff

 

 

[Guest J430]

Captain

 

From my experience they will attempt to contact you and expect you to be on frequency.

 

As for starting SAR, possibly not until that elapses. I have a mate who could answer it next time I talk....providing I remember.

 

J

 

 

[Guest brentc]

The obvious applies here Captain (pretty much the same thing happened to me, except for hitting something hard) and they lodged my details with AUS-SAR. It took probably around 25 minutes before I received a call on my mobile and a call from an inbound Bonanza and Virgin 737. The story went that I had to do a quick diversion and land for the passenger pit-stop and there was confusion on the cancellation of my flight following, so as a result a SAR time breach was instantly recorded and the uncertainty phase initiated. Lots of big words. I was most surprised to receive a phone call, but as I said I didn't use the exact words requesting them to 'cancel flight following.' I was most impressed with the speed of their response on this occasion. Luckily I had in a flight plan, otherwise they may have come looking, although they did get hold of me via VHF eventually.

 

I think the fact that others (and the regs) are saying that the service gets cancelled when you fade out indicates that the lodging if a flight-plan would be a sensible action prior, or if you do fade and you didn't know that you would, lodge a SAR time with flightwatch on the fly.

 

 

[Paul Willett]

As one of those who provide this service to you(us) in the Brisbane area, I am a bit perplexed at some of the expectations expressed in this thread.

 

Reading the reference already linked is a good start to clear up any confusion - specifically AIP 3.3, 2.1.6.

 

But briefly:

 

FLIGHT FOLLOWING, is essentially a Radar Information Service (RIS), previously known as a Radar Advisory Service (RAS).

 

Radar Coverage is required (therefore a transponder by default)

 

Continuous Two-way communication is also required - you will lose the service if changing to CTAF and must inform ATC when intending to change frequency. Your service will be terminated.

 

Flight Following Handoff must be requested by the pilot. (Your prompt will be when your service is terminated by the controller - if this is because your are leaving radar coverage - now called surveillance - then it is unlikley an ongoing service will be available to you. If you are not sure just ask)

 

Put in a flight plan when you know in advance you wll be utilising this service - flight plan entry is a big distraction for ATC when running traffic. ATC may be running high level separation and approach sequencing whilst also providing youe flight following. If you have planned it will make life easier for everyone - including you.

 

If you havent put in a plan give a call like: BRISBANE RADAR/CENTRE ULTRALIGHT 7575 WITH DETAILS REQUESTING FLIGHT FOLLOWING. This gives an immediate prompt to the controller you dont have details. When you get the GO AHEAD DETAILS make sure you include:

 

AIRCRAFT TYPE , POSITION, DESTINATION or POINT you want a service to, ALTITUDE (you are maintaining) and POB.

 

e.g. ULTRALIGHT 7575, JABIRU, 20NM north of YBCG, TRACKING COASTAL NORTHBOUND FOR BUNDABERG, MAINT 3500, 2POB.

 

(BTW - if you just want a snapshot of traffic in your area or a position check you don't need Flight Following, just a POSITION ADVISORY or TRAFFIC ADVISORY - we dont need a flight plan for that. Possibly the controller will just ask you to SQUAWK IDENT (the SPI function on your Transponder).

 

Please, please, please, ensure you have ALT selected on your transponder - even if not talking to ATC.

 

There is no SARTIME as such - there is a continuous SAR monitoring service until such time as the service is terminated (either by you or by ATC). Hence the need to monitor continuous 2-way contact with ATC. e.g. if you dissapear from Radar Coverage, and we advise RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED and you do not acknowledge, (even if it is where we expect you to fade from Radar Coverage) we have no choice but to start communication checks and initiate SAR action - as you would expect and hope! A mobile phone number on your flight plan is a really good idea BTW.

 

Another point - dont be surprised to be denied FLIGHT FOLLOWING in designated Danger Areas where Intense flying training is conducted - the amount of traffic can make a traffic advisory impossible.

 

An article in the CASA FSA magazine of Mar/Apr 05 had to following information:

 

From June 9, 2005, new phraseologies will make it clear when a pilot is asking

 

for an ongoing radar information service (RIS).

 

 

 

RIS is available to VFR pilots in classes E and G airspace.

 

 

 

Subject to workload, ATC will provide pilots who

 

 

 

have requested “flight following” with radar-derived information

 

 

 

to improve situational awareness. There is no charge

 

 

 

associated with the service. “Request flight following”

 

 

 

will indicate to the controller that you are asking for an

 

 

 

ongoing radar information service. Once you get flight

 

 

 

following, ATC will monitor the progress of your flight.

 

 

 

They’ll keep an eye on you to make sure you are headed in

 

 

 

the right direction and advise you of any conflicting traffic

 

 

 

they can see.

 

 

 

A contoller providing flight following can also help you

 

 

 

to get a clearance or avoid class C, class D or restricted

 

 

 

airspace. On request ATC will also advise you of your

 

 

 

radar position. Not all traffic is visible on ATC radar, so you

 

 

 

must remember to remain vigilant at all times.

 

 

 

To get the flight following service you need to be in

 

 

 

radar coverage. You’ll need a transponder and VHF communications

 

 

 

with ATC.

 

 

 

Because flight following is provided on a workload permitting

 

 

 

basis, ATC may not be able to provide flight following

 

 

 

in busy environments.

The link on the RAA Website is also worth a read:

 

http://www.auf.asn.au/comms/procedure.html#ris

 

 

[Captain]

Thanks Paul

 

That is terrific Paul.

 

How good is this forum for allowing us to discuss and learn stuff like this?

 

Although I guess that it could be argued that we should preferably all be off reading direct from the links that have been given.

 

I have found this very valuable, so thanks again to all that have contributed.

 

 

[Geoff]

Me to thanks Paul

 

 

[Guest BrynD]

Hello all, especially captain.

 

From my own experience in flying in the Bundaberg region, the important thing to remember is that there is a large gap in radar coverage below 5000 feet in the Bundaberg area up to around Noosa. Flight following is a Radar Advisory Service aimed at giving you advice on traffic/CTA/restricted areas etc and hence you need a functioning mode C transponder and you need to be in radar coverage. With regard to your flight from Caboolture to Bundy, typically you would call Brisbane Centre on 125.7 departing Caboolture and 'request flight following.' If ATC are not busy then they will get you to go ahead with your details. You would then reply with the usual details i.e. aircraft type/position/altitude/intentions. ATC will then respond with "identified," meaning they can see you on radar and flight following has begun. Typically ATC will hand you over to the next area frequency, BN Centre 129.0 heading north from memory but radar coverage will be lost somewhere around Noosa. ATC will advise "radar services terminated" and your flight following will now be cancelled. It is important to maintain direct contact with BN centre the whole time you are under flight following, otherwise they will initiate SAR action. This means any time you change to a CTAF etc you must advise ATC so they can cancel your flight following.

 

Anyway, hope this helps

 

Bryn ;)

 

 

[Mazda]

Flight following is on a workload permitting basis, which is why there is no charge. So feel free to use it, it's there to help you. If the controller is too busy they'll say it isn't available. As it is a radar service they can give you more than just traffic. Remember they can give navigational assistance too.

 

 

[Modest Pilot]

The Real World

 

From a practical point of view if you are operating between Bundy and Maroochy you are darn close to going from one CTAF to another.

 

126.7 seems to be the most useful frequency when not on another CTAF frequency; there are heck a of lot of private, unlicensed and other strips in the area and even Fraser Island commercial beach landing traffic seem to use this frequency. May not be quite what the A I P intended but with no radar below 5000 in this area if you want to know where everyone is it’s your best bet.

 

 

[Mazda]

126.7 is the "multicom" frequency - i.e. if you are operating to an uncontrolled aerodrome without a published CTAF, use 126.7 so you are not broadcasting on a control frequency. That's why there are so many of them!

 

 

[Guest disperse]

thanks to all for the info....

 

just going back a little in the thread on the subject of increasing the 5000ft limit and the possible inforcment of a transponder causing a problem for some flyers. could they not keep the 5000ft limit and rules as they are and (should it accually happen ) just add a higher limit for transponder equiped aircraft should they want to utilise it

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Sorry,

 

I'm a bit lost with this thread... I dug these out of the current VFG from CASA.

 

Anyone shed light where it says no flying above 5000ft?

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Ben,

 

this is the reverse of the circuit conversation!

 

In the case of a Tecnam the limitation is in CAO 95.55 para 5. You'll find a copy of of the CAO in your ops manual.

 

CAO 95.55 para 1.6 and 1.7 BTW covers the approval of aircraft such as the Tecnam.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Ben Longden]

I copied this direct from the legislation, CAO 95 par 5, dealing with RAA registered aircraft and Flight Conditions.

 

 

Would it be reasonable to say, based on that, flight over 5000 feet is permissable is safe to do so, fitted with a radio and in VFR conditions in Class E or G airspace. For the purpose of this discussion, I am not referring to a flight where the terrain altitude is 5000ft,

 

Likewise, from the current VFG, any VFR flight can be made up to 20,000 feet - which is the exemption used by sky dive operators.

 

I'm not trying to be picky, just separate opinion from law.

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Ben,

 

My understanding is that if you fulfill the criteria set out 5.1(a) (i) and (ii) then and only then you can fly at or in excess of 5000'.

 

So for instance when I flew YSHT - YNRM return at Easter I do not believe that I would ever have met those criteria in the eyes of a reasonable woman/man therefore I did the trip at under 5000'. There were by the way blokes doing the trip at 9500' at the same time but I believe that they were not complying.

 

There has been another thread about this recently but I just can't lay my hands on it.

 

You should also be aware that oxygen becomes an issue at some point - again I can't remember the precise rules but I think 10000' is a critical height. In addition you run into service ceiling issues - I think 14,500' with the Tecnam. These are not trivial issues either as the two pilots in the Pinnacle Airlines crash may have realised at some point prior to their death:

 

http://www.aero-news.net/Community/DiscussTopic.cfm?TopicID=4364&Refresh=1

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Thanks Mike,

 

That answers my questions.

 

BTW, I might try and dig up some useless information on Hypoxia (onset symptoms etc) from our DAME for another thread.

 

Ben