Ada Elle Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I did a class in human factors & automation, taught by an aeronautical engineering department (professors were: ex-American Airlines, ex-USN F-18) during my long-since-abandoned PhD studies. misidentification of controls has been a factor in incidents in the past, and having a degree of tactile feedback through shaping is an established way of reducing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 misidentification of controls has been a factor in incidents in the past, and having a degree of tactile feedback through shaping is an established way of reducing this. Unfortunately this doesn't always make it from the text book to real life. There are still many "wrong lever" incidents occurring despite the unique shapes of various knobs and levers. Nothing like looking, thinking, then actioning. The trim and carb heat knobs on Citabrias are significantly different in size and subtly differ in shape, yet errors still occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I was taught oval circuits when I learnt to fly (by a pom - excellent instructor with lots of years & hours) if you are the correct distance from the runway centreline on downwind and approx 1 NM downwind of the threshold roll into a rate 1 turn (3 deg per sec, bank angle = IAS/10+ (1/2 of ans) 5 e.g 100/10 = 10+5 = 15) at a rate of descent of 500 fpm and you will roll out on final every time 1 NM from the threshold. Example for most aircraft in rec flying must allow for xwinds as normal. Initial Approach speed 75 kts Radius of turn = TAS/Rate x 0.016 = 75/3 x .016 = 0.4 (approx 1/2 mile) so you should commence your turn approx 1 mile from the centre line and 1 mile downwind (approx 45 deg) of the threshold at approx 11 deg of bank angle and RoD 500 fpm, if flown accurately you will roll out 1 mile and 500 feet from the threshold. As always flying VFR is a series of visual cues and practice, those cues come both inside and outside the cockpit. Aldo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 and having a degree of tactile feedback through shaping is an established way of reducing this. having them well away from each other would be a good one. I bet that caught your attention hey!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Trimming an aircraft requires a recognition of a priority. Trimming is meant to remove control pressure so it's not tiring or distracting, that is all. Pitch is the main thing WE encounter, but it's not so simple as the main causal factor is speed variation, so as you level off at cruise height and leave power where it is the aircraft accelerates steadily and you are constantly inching the trim forward. The reverse happens when you.pull power and wash off speed. You have to discipline yourself not to fly on trim. Fly the plane and trim out stick forces when appropriate and smoothly relax the stick force as the trim becomes effective. NOT in TURNS, or any temporary situation. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ada Elle Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Pitch is the main thing WE encounter, but it's not so simple as the main causal factor is speed variation, so as you level off at cruise height and leave power where it is the aircraft accelerates steadily and you are constantly inching the trim forward. The reverse happens when you.pull power and wash off speed. You have to discipline yourself not to fly on trim. Fly the plane and trim out stick forces when appropriate and smoothly relax the stick force as the trim becomes effective. NOT in TURNS, or any temporary situation I don't trim on the turn. The plane should not be accelerating steadily with a fixed trim / elevator position - it should stabilise at a given AoA/airspeed. So you should be able to trim for a cruise speed, then use small throttle changes to keep the vario at zero. On cross countries where I'm trying to maintain a TAS, I will use a touch on the trim to increase or decrease airspeed, dampen out the phugoid, and then change the throttle to regain altitude. This is in the 2-3 knot range, mind you, and electric trim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I don't know what aircraft you are flying. Some have remarkably small pitch trim variation with speed change, and others like Citabria have quite a lot. Some aircraft depart from an altitude easily. Bonanza, Debonair as an example. It will also vary with your CofG. An aircraft holding a fixed altitude and changing speed will change elevator position and you trim to the new position. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey232 Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Osprey, were you in -PBS late in the afternoon? I think I saw you in the circuit as I was coming back in -SXQ.I'm not good enough at picking a degree or two in attitude so I've been trimming to airspeed (ie hold the nose constant, let the airspeed stabilise, then trim a little bit before or past that depending on the relationship of the airspeed to the desired airspeed), then changing engine power based on RoC and using the elevator to dampen the phugoid. It's not pretty, but if I'm paying attention I can get it to work. Nev - the wing relation sight picture is different between the left and right wings when seated in the left seat. In the citab it was a lot easier except for the need to really use the right foot doing all those powered right hand turns. Yeah that was me in PBS. Done 3 hours of circuits now. Was a bit bumpier on Friday which was good - being pushed north a little on base gave me something extra to think about, especially when Dave put it to idle and made me glide home!! I guess thats the whole idea of circuits yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey232 Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Judging the flare/round out, I posted a new thread with my frustrations today. Heaps of very helpful people with great advice, I must say. Circuits are by far the most rewarding and fun part of flying so far for me. All the best Yeah thats probably the issue I have at the moment. Flaring too early. I finally got the tip to fly it "down" to the runway. You initially feel like you are coming in way too hot, but learning that flaring too early can be ugly once your speed washes off and you get close to stall speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Try using the windsock as a guide, start flaring when your at half the windsock height. Worked perfect for me when I was training. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Or better still,. . .ASK YOUR INSTRUCTOR if you're having grief with any manouvre at all really,. . . .Learning is a bit of an indeterminate curve,. . . and good instructors can always find a way of explaining the same thing in a number of different ways, however subtle. ( No offence intended at all Robbo. . . there's plenty of advice here, especially when pilots have got that bit of paper, and are experimenting doing it "Their" way) When students are training, it's really GOOD for them to discuss it with like minded souls, but advice given (innocently) to them is, well, perhaps not a real good idea, even though it is given with the best of intentions, it can ( to some ) be confusing. ( Head pulled back in - - - sorry ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I don't know what aircraft you are flying. Some have remarkably small pitch trim variation with speed change, and others like Citabria have quite a lot.Some aircraft depart from an altitude easily. Bonanza, Debonair as an example. It will also vary with your CofG. An aircraft holding a fixed altitude and changing speed will change elevator position and you trim to the new position. Nev The Plane I'm training in, a Tecnam Eaglet, when you have 15' flap and the trim all the way back as far as it goes to the nose up, the plane settles in to a nice stable 65 kt descent. Co-incidentally this is the ideal approach speed for this aircraft. If you're a little high, add a little more flap, if a little low, add a little power.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Yeah thats probably the issue I have at the moment. Flaring too early. I finally got the tip to fly it "down" to the runway. You initially feel like you are coming in way too hot, but learning that flaring too early can be ugly once your speed washes off and you get close to stall speed. Last time I did circuits, I achieved 3 out of 4 really good landings, before this I had 3 circuit sessions of really bad landings, this video really helped me judge the round out.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 ( No offence intended at all Robbo. . . there's plenty of advice here, especially when pilots have got that bit of paper, and are experimenting doing it "Their" way) No offence taken. Just my personel way that I mastered the flare during training :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ada Elle Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Yeah that was me in PBS. Done 3 hours of circuits now. Was a bit bumpier on Friday which was good - being pushed north a little on base gave me something extra to think about, especially when Dave put it to idle and made me glide home!! I guess thats the whole idea of circuits yeah? Bumpy??? It was a little breezy in the morning (about 8-10kt of headwind) but the afternoon was pretty calm. I missed the best of the afternoon thermals, though, could hardly get any lift. Need to book a time to do a CTA/CTR navex to YSCB in one of the Warriors next week. Just hanging out for the pipersport to get its engine back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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