Too Spin or Not to Spin – To Turn Back or Not to Turn Back – The Question and The Answer?

[facthunter]

Round Sounds...You DO need the right aircraft for that, of course (Spin and recovery) Certified aerobatic to some degree.

 

General comments... The early sign of an impending spin is an uncommanded wing drop at the point of stall.

 

To put it into a spin you have to do at the most 2 things which are both instinctive .

 

Pick up the lower wing with aileron and (try to) raise the nose by pulling the stick back.

 

These two actions are natural and instinctive and unless you resist the temptation, you have just put your plane into a situation of actual spin entry at low level, if you are turning final, no recovery possible at that height as you have rolled over and the nose is pointing near vertical downwards..

 

Clearly prevention is better than cure, here and that was the idea in the early 60's when actual spinning in most plane s couldn't be done, because they weren't certified for it. Prior to that everyone did spinning training. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

If you don't get spin training I would suggest slow flying and keep the wings level with rudder. Whenever you are slow get ready to use that rudder to pick up a wing, especially on finals.

Picking up a wing with rudder is one of the worst myths ever promoted! Picking up a wing prior to the stall is effected with coordinated use of aileron and rudder, at / beyond the point of stall only use sufficient rudder to prevent yaw in the direction of the dropped wing. To pick up a stalled wing with rudder is likely to result in a spin in the direction of the rudder input.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

General comments... The early sign of an impending spin is an uncommanded wing drop at the point of stall.

To put it into a spin you have to do at the most 2 things which are both instinctive .

 

Pick up the lower wing with aileron and (try to) raise the nose by pulling the stick back.

 

These two actions are natural and instinctive and unless you resist the temptation, you have just put your plane into a situation of actual spin entry at low level, if you are turning final, no recovery possible at that height as you have rolled over and the nose is pointing near vertical downwards..

Totally agree with your comments, I have an issue with how most instructors train incipient spin / spin entry. Usually it will be from a power off, wings level stall with rudder input at the point of stall. The most effective way is to simulate an uncoordinated turn. (after an appropriate briefing as to why you're doing this) the typical killer is the overshot turn onto final. Instructors stress minimum bank angles on the final turn, so blogs uses a little rudder to "help" the turn, holds off bank resulting in a skidding turn. As the result of an increase in drag the aircraft slows, gets nose heavy so blogs holds back pressure - these are the warning signs of an impending spin entry. Do this at a safe altitude, in an appropriately certified aeroplane and instructor and you will find the penny drops and the pilot will be aware of the consequences of a skidding turn. A similar exercise can be done in a climbing turn, in a Citabria, Decathlon, Cessna 150/2 aerobat, Tiger or Chippy you will lose at least 700'. The added advantage of the climbing turn is you need to close the throttle, centralise the ailerons before identifying the direction of rotation and applying appropriate rudder, followed by elevator input to start the recovery.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well, thank you for the compliment. There is also the power application at the right time now included in the new part 61. Even with a very powerful engine the rudder works and hold the pitch slightly above level flight and make sure you don't have back stick still.. aileron neutral till you obviously have enough speed for it to be effective. You will lose negligible height and we are talking about a matter of seconds of time. This is all before it is autorotating or the nose has dropped below about 40 degrees. I've only put the principle here. It will need to be refined for aircraft with different characteristics.

 

So to recover a stall in minimum height you use full engine power, pin the nose on a pitch suitable . I suggest it will be from just below to just above the horizon,and ensure the stick is forward of the stall stick position. Nev .

 

 

[djpacro]

Totally agree with your comments, I have an issue with how most instructors train incipient spin / spin entry. Usually it will be from a power off, wings level stall with rudder input at the point of stall.....

That was all per my instructor rating course of 20 years ago.

?.... The most effective way is to simulate an uncoordinated turn. (after an appropriate briefing as to why you're doing this) the typical killer is the overshot turn onto final....

and yet an engine failure should never have such a tragic ending.

.....A similar exercise can be done in a climbing turn, in a Citabria, Decathlon, Cessna 150/2 aerobat, Tiger or Chippy you will lose at least 700'. The added advantage of the climbing turn is you need to close the throttle, centralise the ailerons before identifying the direction of rotation and applying appropriate rudder, followed by elevator input to start the recovery.

Now we have this in the Part 61 Manual of Standards for required stall training. We also have a new, unique to Australia, definition of aerobatics which would most likely encompass that exercise. So, only those taught by instructors with spin/aerobatic training endorsements are likely to get the mandated training.

[Bruce Tuncks]

What happened to " safe speed near the ground?" This was the lesson drummed in when I learned to fly. How can you do an accidental stall/spin when you are 15 knots over the stall speed?

 

 

[Geoff13]

Steep descending turn base to final, overshoot the runway centre line, panic and kick the rudder to get it around, then all of a sudden you are losing height, speed, and out of balance. Those 15 knots disappear fairly quickly once out of balance and it is going to hit 1 wing before the other as well.

 

 

[facthunter]

The stall margin you carry is for unaccelerated flight where the aircraft wing is lifting equal to the mass of the plane. Of course always remember the stall is the wing's AoA , which you can't sense by any instrument on the normal panel. The seat of the pants will tell you a fair bit, if you let it. It's basic that when banked at some angle in a balanced turn the "G" increases the same is if you are pulling out of a dive, or increasing your climb rapidly as entering a loop, but not in a steady climb, with a powerful motor, where you actually may have less than one "G" as the thrust may be doing some of the lifting. Always the pilot stalls the plane by applying back stick then the critical AoA exceeds about 16 degrees, you get less lift and lots more drag and the nose wants to drop and the pilot gives more back stick and presto it's going pear shaped fast. The more power and speed you have on at the time the more sudden it will generally be, but the back stick got you there and it's the clue to getting out of the situation. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Anyone ever had the chance to compare the Tomahawk to the Beechcraft Skipper? They look similar.

 

 

[Fairoaks Flyer]

"Gor Blimey Mate Sid" used to give spin training in a Tiger Moth. When you asked him to spin it the other way next time, he would say "Gor Blimey Mate, can't do that or the prop will stop". Which way can you spin a Tomahawk?

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

I flew and instructed in Tomahawks 20 or more years ago (~140 hours).

The thing I remember most (apart from its' lack of performance) was the fact that the airframe would start shaking alarmingly approaching the stall (due, I think to the T tail) so there was never much doubt about what was happening.

 

Never did spin it though DWF

You're correct DWF as I remember the bird. When I was instructing basic students in both C150s and Tomahawks, we taught stall recovery by doing them, but spin recovery was taught with books, photos, and toy airplanes (unless we had a simulator - I've recovered from spins many times in a Link trainer. Piece of cake.) The Tomahawk announced its intentions quite well. I remember particularly the first time I had a student stall a Tomahawk. I had plenty of C150 stalls, and maybe one or two Tomahawk stalls. When he entered the stall, I was looking at the horizontal stabilizer. Don't do that; it'll scare you witless. Dang thing looked like it was going to depart the airplane.

 

As I recall, Piper put "stall strips" on the inboard leading edge of the wings - but perhaps I remember incorrectly - and that greatly helped with stalls and spins.

 

I say a friend's Tomahawk after his son hit the fiberglass whip antenna on the top of a radio tower in it. The antenna hit the left wing about 2.5 feet from the fuselage. The left fuel tank was ruptured, the leading edge was pushed back into the main spar, the skin was greatly deformed. But even more important, the left horizontal stabilizer was also deformed and hanging down somewhat. The rudder was damaged quite a bit too. He flew the bird back to our field - a distance of 7-8 miles as the ruptured bird flies. I gained respect for the "tramahawk" after that. I didn't think one that damaged would come home but it did.

 

But I always greatly preferred the C150 over the Tomahawk for training (and just for flying). And like DWF, I never did a spin in a Tomahawk, but I've done them in C150s, Citabrias, and CAPs. Good training but just not my cup of tea.

 

Got my most recent BFR in a C150 last month while awaiting arrival of my new Foxbat (which I was lucky enough to fly again today).