Narrabeenrick Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Not by me Rick, good argument for ownership.Gimballock! the Hummelbird's too small for you but the newer ultracruiser will fit your size, you'll have to check the hummel websight, or w3.flyhummel.c for the plans to suit. spacesailor Thanks mate, I don't think for one minute that owning an aircraft would be cheap, But if Just say I have $6000 to $8000 a yr I can play with, Rego a couple of $100 insurance around $4000 then bits and pieces and the rest I'll limit my flying to that. Am I being a bit simplistic/optimistic ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Cant give you a spreadsheet but can tell you owning a 2013 Alpi Pioneer Rotax 912ULS and flying around 200 hours a year ends up costing us around $70 ish hour all up including rego, licences, hanger rent $180 pm and that's wet with all servicing cost and any replacement parts so far. This does not include opportunity cost of the money, as to me that's not what life is about... some opportunities don't need measurement You will never be able to justify buying your own aircraft based on $ alone... just like boats, houses and snow chalets, it always works out cheaper in groups... But what you cant measure is the fact, if i feel like going flying anytime I can, I dont have too book ever, I can fly it at all the popular times, when club or shared aircraft are in demand... Take a flyin for example,good luck getting a club plane for that.... The other big plus of your own aircraft, is I know exactly every time its had even the slightest of rough landings, every time the temp has got warm and every time its had a wash etc... there are no unknowns...that's a big plus if you start flying any distance or over tiger country etc... It scares me the way some club aircraft get landed and then the next person hops in none the wiser.... These are all the things you cant put a $ figure on.... At the end of the day you either want one or you dont... if you really want one you will find a way to afford it...and make sacrifices elsewhere... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narrabeenrick Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Cant give you a spreadsheet but can tell you owning a 2013 Alpi Pioneer Rotax 912ULS and flying around 200 hours a year ends up costing us around $70 ish hour all up including rego, licences, hanger rent $180 pm and that's wet with all servicing cost and any replacement parts so far. This does not include opportunity cost of the money, as to me that's not what life is about... some opportunities don't need measurementYou will never be able to justify buying your own aircraft based on $ alone... just like boats, houses and snow chalets, it always works out cheaper in groups... But what you cant measure is the fact, if i feel like going flying anytime I can, I dont have too book ever, I can fly it at all the popular times, when club or shared aircraft are in demand... Take a flyin for example,good luck getting a club plane for that.... The other big plus of your own aircraft, is I know exactly every time its had even the slightest of rough landings, every time the temp has got warm and every time its had a wash etc... there are no unknowns...that's a big plus if you start flying any distance or over tiger country etc... It scares me the way some club aircraft get landed and then the next person hops in none the wiser.... These are all the things you cant put a $ figure on.... At the end of the day you either want one or you dont... if you really want one you will find a way to afford it...and make sacrifices elsewhere... Well said mate, I couldn't agree more, If you are only after the bare $ facts on a spread sheet, then why own a car, don't be hypocritical and get rid of your car, owning a car could be looked at the same way, Our friends don't own a car, they hire the "Go Get " cars, they book it and drive away, no cleaning , no maintenance costs and cost then next to nothing to hire it, A much cheaper option than owning a car. But they have to wait till it is available and walk down the road to get it. If I didn't drive my car , just to have it sitting there for the year would cost me ,what rego and insurance ? there is at least $3000. It's the same logic How much do you think it would cost you if you flew say 75 hrs to 100 hrs per year? And don't included the hangar fees. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 If you need a spreadsheet, you shouldent buy a plane. Aviation is a wallet emptier... And..... CASA is a bank account emptier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargraves Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Not by me either Rick. An arbitary figure of 100 hrs of rec flying per annum per pilot is actually unrealistic in particular if, as an unretired pilot you work for a living, support a young family and are a young hrs pilot who only flys to enjoy it, not for some macho challenge and is very particular about the weather you fly in. All of which means you need the abillity to fly when YOU can and that means ownership in some form. As a by the by Befor buying my first aircraft I to looked at the folding wing options that are available and found that none of the options are able to be folded and transported in any degree of safe secure and damage free long distance trips. The structures are designed to provide structual integrity in flight not banging down the highway semi detached so that pretty much takes the option out unless your close to your field already. Cheers Hargraves 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 insurance is your biggest fixed cost by a massive margin, so find any aircraft that appeals to your budget get a quote on that first...its also approx 30% more expensive when your low hours and varies with aircraft type.... With 6000+ you should be able to fly most RAA Aircraft 50+ hours no problems, if you buy smart, which will keep most people very happy.. If you buy someone elses neglected mess because its cheap, then all bets are off. make sure oil and filters have been done religilously...and if its a non coastal aircraft eating dust causes additional premature wear, so air filter maint becomes critical. coastal aircraft, corrosion is the big issue. In terms of low hour pilots , thats when all three of us flew most....i now fly about 1/2 what i did in my first year of ownership. However i now do more trips, eg Port macquarie to dubbo this weekend, which quickly adds 5-6 hours or so... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimballock Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 All these debates have raged in my head for years but the short of it is that, as it is, I barely fly 10 hours per year at the current rates. All I tend to do is dual circuits and revision for an hour, once every 3 months in a Jabiru J160 for $120 per hour (private hire ex-instructor) or a Tecnam P96 for $160 per hour (private hire ex-instructor!) Trying to come up with strategies to improve this situation. I'm not expecting that, if I muck around with a spreadsheet, I'll suddenly discover that it's possible for me to own my very own Cirrus SR-22 where I never could before. I'm expecting it to be more of the case that I end up owning some rag-and-bone ultralight that runs a Rotax 277 (or the like!) just so I have something to beat around in to get my fix.... and I was hoping that, if I could do the numbers right, I could run one for less that 90 bucks an hour. Yes, my rough estimates for an aircraft like this were starting at about $6000 per year. Yes, I like the idea of folding wings (developing a fascination for the Flying Flea!) as hangarage is prohibitive - almost as expensive as renting a 1 bedroom apartment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 The other option is keep offering to buy a share in every decent aircraft in your area.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narrabeenrick Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Not by me either Rick. An arbitary figure of 100 hrs of rec flying per annum per pilot is actually unrealistic in particular if, as an unretired pilot you work for a living, support a young family and are a young hrs pilot who only flys to enjoy it, not for some macho challenge and is very particular about the weather you fly in. All of which means you need the abillity to fly when YOU can and that means ownership in some form. As a by the by Befor buying my first aircraft I to looked at the folding wing options that are available and found that none of the options are able to be folded and transported in any degree of safe secure and damage free long distance trips. The structures are designed to provide structual integrity in flight not banging down the highway semi detached so that pretty much takes the option out unless your close to your field already. Cheers Hargraves Hi Hargraves, I hear what you are saying mate and have heard about that problem, I have also read that you don't want the folding wings where the folding mechanism has anything to do with load bearing or attachment points. That is what I like about the Zenith folding wing. Please correct me if I'm wrong but there folding system doesn't have anything to do with load bearing. Here is a copy/paste from there web page " The folding wings option (FWO) allows the STOL CH 701’s wings to be folded back alongside the rear fuselage, providing added convenience for storing or towing the aircraft. To fold the wings, the four wing bolts must first be removed, and then the wing is turned upward 90� and folded back alongside the fuselage, pivoting on the folding wing ‘universal hinge’ attachment. The folding wing option does not change the wings’ attachment points, and thus does not weaken structural attachment points." As for the transportation side I'm sure I could make up some type of system to lock and hold the wings if I feel their system isn't good enough . Cheers Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Hi Gimballock, Here's a very neat one for you, at the price it's a steal. SportAir single seater In our classified spacesailor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimballock Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 Had a look at it. Yes, it looks nice. Yes, it's a steal! Now, if I could only convince the "Finance and Logisitics Manager" (the wife) whose main objection (moreso than the initial cost of he aircraft) are the ongoing costs which, as it turns out, is the reason I started this thread. I'd love a little whizz-around aircraft like this! But, unless it costs little to run and store when not in use, is a return to the initial problem. Also, it's not actually a finish-built aircraft, so it's a "Need a workshop and some more money" situation. Ultimately, it's looking more and more like "Wait until you win Lotto and then we'll talk about it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narrabeenrick Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 What about this one. MERLIN PSA QUICK-BUILD KIT PRICE LIST AIRFRAME CLASSIC KIT: Quick-Build E-A/B Airframe Parts Kit: Spars & Sub-Assemblies Are Riveted All Parts Are Pre-Fabricated And Pre-Drilled. Includes Composite Gear, Wheels, Brakes, Control & Fuel Systems $16,500 POWERPLANTS Rotax 582: 65HP Electric Start, B Drive, Oil Injected $6,900. I presume that is US $ but nice little aircraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 But a hella of price increase over the $5,555 with a motor, for the SportAir aircraft. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 QUICK DO IT NOW Chinook wt11 ultralight for sale $1,800, Bay item number:262591436334 Needs paint & rego You can't buy cheaper than this!. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimballock Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 Ooooooh! Tempting! But this is exactly what I'm looking for - an honest little aeroplane that costs little to buy, cost little to run, costs little to store when not in use. If there's one now, there's bound to be another one when I've convinced The Boss that we can afford it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Hi I sent a copy of my spreadsheet back to the author (m,holland) , don't know if or what to get in reply, but received nothing yet, But the initial aircraft outlay shouldn't be on the yearly input as most owner's keep them at lease a couple years. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimballock Posted August 28, 2016 Author Share Posted August 28, 2016 Yes, I think that some considerations should come under the category of "It's just one of those things." A number of owners I have spoken to don't even bother annuating costs - they just put fuel and oil into it and pay the bills (tyres, re-skinning etc) as they come up. After a while it gets a bit like claiming "Neighbour's dog kept me awake all night with its barking!" as a deduction on your tax return... or the cost of replacing fuzzy dice as a running cost for your car! The question is: Where do you draw the line between necessary and unnecessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 Insurance, It is both unnecessary & necessary at the same time. It does nothing to the actual cost of flying. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimballock Posted August 30, 2016 Author Share Posted August 30, 2016 I think it depends on the aircraft. Anything over 10,000 should be insured or anything encumbered by a loan. A little run-about that you bought outright might be better off uninsured. A guy in one of my hangars has a Tyro running a 277 that he doesn't insure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 imagine if you landed in a field of wheat almost ready to harvest, late summer, dry as a bone and it catches fire from your aircraft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimballock Posted August 30, 2016 Author Share Posted August 30, 2016 Well, every pile of rubbish on the road should have Third Party Property Damage insurance. I think anything that moves and has the potential to cause damage should have the same.... so, when we say 'insurance', it's generally assumed to be 'hull insurance' I.e. Full coverage to both parties which can cost thousands per year, as opposed to basic 'cover your a$$' insurance, which is assumed to be much cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I think you can work on the principle, that renting is always going to be a cheaper option until you start clocking up 50+ hours a year. A PPC is probably the only cost effective ownership option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I've never considered rent/hire economical for any long term use, as the owner needs to replace inventory before it's use-by date. You can guess who pay's all the other cost for the owner. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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