VFR Pilots Nightmare

[hihosland]

Chris did say

 

"""I'm interested in this 'death spiral' scenario.. That is, is an Artificial Horizon likely to be helpful at all for a VFR pilot that inadvertantly or unavoidably ends up in cloud?

 

We are told that the senses are confused once we loose sight of the real horizon reference point - and we will likely ignore the A-H. Is this actual? Are there people out there (on this Forum) who have had the experience?"""

 

Talk to any pilot who does regular IFR and they will all say that occasionally everyone will get a fit of the "leans" and have to really force themselves to believe the instruments and ignore everything else.

 

I was lucky, extraordinary lucky, I had a very stable aircraft, very stable air, and had completed my intro couple of hours IFR training within a couple of months of getting myself into strife.

 

cheers

 

Davidh

 

 

[Skyhog]

David,in response to your question "VH-BEV where are you now?"

 

It seems that a Cessna 210L with that rego has resided in Broken Hill for about the last 3 years.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I'm interested in this 'death spiral' scenario.. That is, is an Artificial Horizon likely to be helpful at all for a VFR pilot that inadvertantly or unavoidably ends up in cloud?We are told that the senses are confused once we loose sight of the real horizon reference point - and we will likely ignore the A-H. Is this actual? Are there people out there (on this Forum) who have had the experience?

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

G'day Chris,

 

I've done some time under the hood and I enjoyed it. However I did have one bout of "the leans" and it's very disconcerting.

 

It's one thing to "know" the principles; it's quite another to develop a really effective scan and to integrate that scan into the complex process of managing flight. That takes real time and effort.

 

This is a good read on all the disorientations you get and why you get them:

 

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2007/B20070063.aspx

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest brentc]

You would be crazy and death-defying to attempt flight into IMC / Cloud without an AH. Most IFR guys actually do it with auto-pilot right from start to finish which makes things a heck of a lot easier. There are people that could successfully fly without an AH but they would be few and far between.

 

The first time I entered cloud legally I kept the wings perfectly level after being almost fixated on the AH. I had a bad case of the leans and whilst I had the wings level I was compensating for the feeling by the use of rudder and in the end, ended up turning a full flat 180 degree turn without realising (it was early days in my flying). Nowdays, I get the leans however I usually overcome it after a couple of minutes, however it can be trying on my balances and quite a challenge if I haven't done it for a while.

 

After a while you'll develop a 'scan' that is comfortable for you. For me, most importantly the AH comes first for wings level, closely followed by the VSI as an AH doesn't give detailed enough pitch information. Then the skid ball follows along with DG/compass as the most important instrument for me.

 

After I experienced a vacuum AH failure whilst over cloud on the way to Narromine, I went out and purchased a Tru-Trak Graphical electric turn coorinator. Whilst it doesn't have pitch information, it can be used as an AH with perfect accuracy and it's electric which covers me for a vacuum pump failure.

 

So to answer your question from my point of view - I would not fly without an AH assuming I have the option and feel it's the most important instrument on the panel for the kind of flying that I regularly undertake; mainly as a life insurance policy or if I face an absolutely have to get there type scenario (which mind you is yet to happen).

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Long ago when flying my Condor "minimum" at the Salt Ash dropzone, a popular spot for the Windsock Club. i had a frightful experience with fog. early winterish morning flying at about 100ft over some nearby swampy ground with scattered trees, i was heading back to the landing area that was a square mile of mowed grass with a two strips crossing in the middle. just a minute or so away. So, were does fog come from? some rolls in but this time it just appeared. just like that. white and damp. the only instruments fitted to my beast were a hall disc and tube ASI and a bit of ribbon for a slip skid indicator. with a whole 50hrs of self instruction i knew i was in big trouble. most of my theory came from crash comics and they did not help much because all those i read about in this situation had died. granted they were flying heavier and faster aircraft and a lot higher. if i lost it here i could possibly survive the impact but probably drown in the swamp. so what to do, try and climb? desend? panic seemed a good option. so kept cool and reduced power to were i knew it would maintain straight and level, hands off. there was only a slight breeze so should stay roughly on my heading back to that big lovely mowed grass area. the asi had moisture inside it and stuck at max cruise. so kept my eyes wide open for any trees that might jump at me and counted off minute then started a slow decent just slowly pulling the power back and keeping a little back pressure on the stick about 15ft the ground appeared and did a normal landing, i had made it back to the dropzone. i sat there with the engine off and just thought about what happened. lucky. there were some visual clues the fog was lighter above me so that must be up. but there was no visible horizon. the condor is super stable needing big control imputs. with the power set right it will stay put. i was heading the right way and you can't beat a landing area like that one. plus i knew how far out i was, so i was lucky. couda crashed mate. a few minutes later it cleared and found i was well inside the perimiter and taxied back to were we all had set up camp. the rest of the troup had heard me fly past and were waiting for the thump. we had a bit of a chuckle over it. but that incident possibly came along at the right time for me. definatly got a 'heads up' from that.

 

i recieved a tip from a wise old owl from the wire and canvas days, that if you are caught out in cloud and you are loosing it, it may be best to stall the aircraft hold full back stick and apply full rudder. at least this way the aircraft is still under control. flat spinning. much better option than ripping your wings off. the airspeed is low along with your rate of decent. when (if) you come out of the cloud you can recover. if (when) you do hit the ground at least the rate of decent and the impact angle are low. much better chance of survival.

 

a couple of other stories but i'll leave them for later.

 

ozzie

 

 

[bushpilot]

Thanks Mike - That publication is a good read. Wow, Ozzie - yet another sweaty palms story from you! But some great lessons there. And, Brent C. - solid advice as usual. Thanks all.

 

Guys (or others) -a Q for you: Some people tell me that the instruments function on the Garmin 296 GPS includes reasonably effective AH and VSI - enough for 'emergency support'. Do you have a view on this?

 

Brent - Can you tell more about the TruTrak Graphical electric turn coordinator?: What is it actually and where did you get yours. Not much on the Web.

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

 

 

[bushpilot]

Brent C: Is this it??

 

TruTrak Pictorial Turn & Bank 3 1/8"

 

$545.00 $530.00 On Sale!

 

In contrast to the turn coordinator, the Pictorial Turn & Bank provides a display that agrees with the artificial horizon, and likewise the real horizon. The dynamic performance of this display is equal to that of an artificial horizon. 12-28 volts 2-1/4" Dimensions - 2.5â€ÂH x 2.5â€ÂW x 3.5â€ÂD 3-1/8" Dimensions - 3.4â€ÂH x 3.4â€ÂW x 3.6â€ÂD Weight- 6 oz

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Yep, that's the one Chris. It wasn't cheap, but that being said was probably only about $100 more than a non-tso'ed Electric Turn Coordinator from spruce. I have used this same unit in an aircraft that had pitch on it, but I didn't find it too successful. If you look at the pic you'll see the marks at the top; on a normal Turn Coordinator they would be on the sides rather than the top. It works exactly the same as a normal turn coordinator except that it's graphical and if you exceed a rate 1 turn, it just keeps turning exactly the same as the AH does. Startup time is 4 seconds and it's a solid state electronic gyo. You can even turn it on in a 60 degree turn and it will align itself automatically. Whilst I would fly through cloud if I had to with the turn coordinator, it's more reassuring with the graphical version, so if you had an AH failure you could just switch over to that. It wasn't a concern to me that it doesn't have pitch as the pitch on a normal AH is barely usable as I said the VSI is a better indication.

 

I also have a Garmin 296. It doesn't have an AH, however it has a turn coordinator. I wouldn't like to rely on it unless the world was almost coming to an end because it's based on GPS / Sattellite information and is not a gyro as such. Techically if you were upside down in cloud it would still be indicating ops normal!

 

If I was to do my dash again, it would have a 4 or 7 inch Dynon EFIS or similar which is electric and has a battery backup. Then again, if you lose electrics you are in the poo a bit if you are relying on them. For NVFR you only need a single source of power for AH/DG/Turn and for IFR you need backups so you'd have to have Electric EFIS and Vacuum I guess, like the Cirrus.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Pic attached of my dash with TruTrak fitted.

 

Pic attached of Cirrus SR20 dash.

 

 

 

 

[bushpilot]

Geez Brent, that Cirrus is full-on!

 

Your Jab dash looks very user friendly also... So, bottom line, that TruTrak could be used in lieu of a regular AH, right?

 

Txs

 

Chris

 

 

[Ross]

I would not count on the vertical speed being low in a spin to the ground. The pilot notes of a Blanik I flew said the vertical speed of a spin was 80 knots - a bit terminal if you have not recovered by the time you get to the ground!

 

But it was the safest way (for the aircraft structure) of descending through cloud provided there was space under the cloud to recover which can vary from say 300 ft for some gliders up to probably 3,000 or 4,000 ft for other aircraft including gliders.

 

Regards

 

 

[Paul Willett]

I dont have my instrument rating current - but have about 5 renewals under my belt.

 

Even flying IFR fairly regularly all those years ago, there were occassions when I still got the leans.

 

A mate of mine who is a 747 Skipper still gets it now and then hand flying an instrument approach.

 

Bottom line - you can not trust what your inner ear is telling you - trust only the instruments - and have the right instruments.

 

And the right qualifications.

 

Otherwise - sit it out on the ground safely with a coffee.

 

Or overnight and have a beer.

 

 

[Flyer]

We are told that the senses are confused once we loose sight of the real horizon reference point - and we will likely ignore the A-H. Is this actual? Are there people out there (on this Forum) who have had the experience?

Cheers,

 

Chris

I had the pleasure ?? of learning about instrument flight from the right hand seat of a Beechcraft Baron 58.(I was a passenger only) I had been picked up from Parabadoo (Hammesly Iron mine site in WA) and was being flown back to Karratha.

 

The Pilot had lodged IFR as there was a fair bit of weather around and the storm scope had a lot of red on it.

 

Anyway, we punched into some cloud and I followed the instruments with him and had no issues until........ I decided to look outside and see what the cloud looked like.....still no major problem until I looked at the instruments again.

 

I swear to God that the instruments were wrong and we were going to die from spiralling in. I had to remind myself that

 

1. I was NOT flying the plane

 

2. The PIC was correctly rated and was doing a good job

 

3. It was my senses that were screwed up NOT the instruments

 

4. I had a GREAT learning opportunity in front of me

 

5. The pilot noticed that I had broken out in a cold sweat and was sheet white. He explained what was happening to my internals.

 

6. I cant remember who offered this piece of advise but I believe it is good especially after experiencing what I did.

 

"If you enter cloud, get on the instruments and under NO circumstances look out of the aircraft at ANY time. get a passenger to do it for you."

 

This episode convinced me not to even think about mucking around with IMC without the proper training. I had the s:censored: frightened out of me in a safe environment.

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[bushpilot]

I found this comment re Garmin 296 on another forum. Anyone care to comment if it overly ambitious to say this?:

 

"One useful feature of the 296 is the panel page. A friend of mine (ex navy pilot) and I have found we can fly IFR very comfortably and safely on this page, probably due to the 5/sec update with WAAS. Given the long battery life the unit has (it really is long) this is a great back up even if everything in your airplane quits."

 

 

[Guest brentc]

"One useful feature of the 296 is the panel page. A friend of mine (ex navy pilot) and I have found we can fly IFR very comfortably and safely on this page, probably due to the 5/sec update with WAAS. Given the long battery life the unit has (it really is long) this is a great back up even if everything in your airplane quits."

I do find that a little bit ambitious. I assume that 5/sec means 5 updates a second? I don't think we get 5 a second in Aus as we don't have WAAS as I understand it.

 

Like I said, if the aircraft were upside down the GPS wouldn't know and the GPS based VSI and Turn are purely GPS based so if you lost signal, you would lose your life. I've done 500 hours behind a 296 and I wouldn't trust my life on the panel page, but that being said, if I had to I would try it. Also the panel page is limited and doesn't have the maps or distances on it, thus to use it for a long period of time under IFR with terrain, you'd have to be swapping pages now and then.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Geez Brent, that Cirrus is full-on!Your Jab dash looks very user friendly also... So, bottom line, that TruTrak could be used in lieu of a regular AH, right?

Chris, I'd say that was a fair assumption. Next time I go up I'll treat the Turn coordinator as a pure AH and see how I go and if it holds up. As far as I recall, it reads exactly the same as the vacuum artificial horizon and you could use it, which realistically was my plan when purchasing. I was hoping that in the event of VFR over the top if I had an engine failure and thus vacuum failure that I could use the tru-trak safely to descend through cloud.

 

 

[Guest disperse]

I Don't have a copy of the AF mag jan 08. But at chrissy I was rumaging through the cupboards at mum and dads and found a small pile of AF that my older brother had bought when he had the bug

 

So I do have a copy of your story HIHOSLAND. and will read it now

 

 

[Yenn]

A friend of mine tells me he could fly IFR using a handheld GPS. All he has to do is stop any turns starting, keep the ball centred and ASI showing a constant speed.

 

You will probably read about him soon after he puts this theory to the test.

 

If the AI fails you would be relying on the turn and bank or as I know it the bat and ball. Current IFR pilots find it difficult to fly without an AI and I am no exception.

 

Keep out of the clouds. Please!

 

 

[Whack777]

There should be no mucking around on this thread about can you fly in imc??? ... I think if you're not in an aircraft that is ifr equipped and you are not instrument rated then just don't do it... you are really playing with fire.

 

On the other hand if you find yourself in imc and you're not rated then don't think all is lost, forget what your body tells you and fly your instruments.... you will probably survive.

 

I have a Garmin 296 and have tried flying using it without referance to anything else and been able to do it... having said that I haven't tried it in bad turbulence, so can't comment on that. It would certainly be better than nothing .... but I wouldn't use it intentionally.

 

Regards

 

 

[facthunter]

Instruments on airspeed.

 

Yenn, your friend obviously has never tried controlling his pitch attitude with airspeed. It's hard enough using the altimeter. If you fly attitude,( is there any other way?) (the planes, not yours), loss of the natural horizon is replaced by the gyro stabilised Artificial Horizon, and you must trust it explicitly, as all your sensory inputs will lead you astray. I don't like the term TURN & BANK. It's TURN & SLIP (OR BALANCE, or SKID).

 

It is possible to fly limited panel with a turn & skid, and a good altimeter, an airspeed indicator, and a magnetic compass, but you'd better be in good recent practice, not in turbulence, and not stressed or suffering from a hangover or sleep deprivation. I don't particularly like the turn coordinator, (to each his own) as I believe, if you are taught the correct technique the turn needle will be more sensitive. It should be remembered that the A.H. will topple, (unless you have a special one or it is digital) if you exceed certain pitch angles. This discussion is totally academic isn't it? as we are not going to fly intentionally in cloud, are we?

 

With all the best intentions, you can get caught out . The weather can change very quickly on occasions. A good understanding of principles of meteorology, the weather patterns forecast, and local knowledge helps, but is no absolute guarantee. Should we do some instrument training? I don't know really. Certainly if it encourages reckless acts NO! But it's not that simple. An autopilot if fitted should be utilised, as it is not aware of the fact that it is in cloud, but where was that big hill again? Nev

 

 

[hihosland]

A great story, well told hihosland.

Thanks for the kind words Yenn

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I have a Garmin 296 and have tried flying using it without referance to anything else and been able to do it... having said that I haven't tried it in bad turbulence, so can't comment on that. It would certainly be better than nothing .... but I wouldn't use it intentionally.

Regards

You're exactly right Wayne. You could seemingly be 100% confident on the AH until you hit some turbulence which is highly likely in cloud. As a general rule from my experience you'd probably encounter turbulence in about 1/3 of cloud entered or thereabouts and sometimes it can be very uncomfortable to the point where it gets very difficult to maintain a constant wings level attitude. When you are bouncing around in the cloud, trying to align your AH, maintain direction, commence a turn, climb or descend AND navigate without hitting a mountain it can give you a headache and if you stuff it up, a really bad one.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Chris / Bushpilot, pic attached is of the top end TruTrak fitted in a Jab. From memory around $1,300 and it has an electronic DG built in which is given by the built in GPS. Even at that price, still far less than paying $1,400'ish for a Vacuum pump and $700 for a vacuum AH. Not bad value for 3 instruments in 1.

 

 

 

[Guest MikeRalph]

From the author of "Very Nearly History"

 

Hi Ben and others who commented upon my Australian Flying article,

 

I'm flattered by the attention the article in Australian Flying has received.

 

I was the pilot of the C182 and I compiled the article.

 

I am very proud of Doug for allowing me to compile the article and publish it with photos. That photo of him above the clouds was actually taken by Karen during the incident. She thought the rescue helicopter was going to pop out of the clouds & lead them to safety! When it didn't, she took a photo of Doug instead.

 

My passengers & I spent half an hour thinking Doug & his pax were dead. It wasn't a pleasant feeling at all.

 

The editor was very generous in allowing such a long article but the article did lose the detail that I was looking two hills ahead (clear of cloud) and watching my back door in case a reversal was required, as per the CASA instructional DVD. The article was about Doug's experience more than mine & I didn't want to appear smug so it was dropped.

 

CASA did not punish Doug. He attended an interview at which he demonstrated that he, as I described, is a cautious pilot who got caught out, not a cowboy. No further action was taken.

 

Once again, Doug was probably keen to consign the incident to personal lessons learnt. I was, um, persuasive in encouraging him to let us all learn from it. I agree, 15/10 to him. Most pilots would have told me to mind my own business.

 

The secondary controller, Dennis, dumped his personal debrief onto a chatroom the night it happened. Within 4 days it made its way to me. I contacted him and he allowed me to use the material. Thanks also to Air Services for allowing it to be published (I ran the article past them). Air Services also allowed the primary controller, Mike, to write his viewpoint for me.

 

CASA has requested for permission to reprint the article in Flight Safety once the Australian Flying issue leaves the newstands.

 

I am very pleased that the article is having an impact. That's what I told Doug: Perhaps some pilot one day will be heading into that situation and reassess his options before it's too late.

 

Kind regards,

 

Michael Ralph

 

[email protected]

 

 

[Guest MikeRalph]

PS: A fortnight after the incident the aeroclub hosted a safety evening by CASA. One of the three topics was "VFR into IMC". Doug, Karen & I had booked in before the incident. I invited the ATCs to attend and had the pleasure of introducing Doug & Karen to their saviours. It was a very emotional night.