Guest airsick Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 We all know that the security measures currently in place are ridiculous and ineffective. This thread isn't about debating the pros and cons of security though, it is about taking some action. Recently at Canberra airport they have changed their procedures. They are saying that this is in response to the Office of Transport Security. The new procedures now require that 30 minutes prior notice is required before you can get access to your plane. Similarly if you land at the airport you have to ring someone and then stand around for 30 minutes before being let out. All a bit ridiculous and pointless. It also reinforces the stupidity of the ASIC. If you have to be screened to get in and out of the airport then what purpose does the ASIC serve? Airline passengers are screened and they don't need one! Anyway, the point of this post is, as I said, not to debate these measures here but to let the pollies know how we feel. In order to do this successfully we need to make a bit of noise. I beg you to write a letter to the Minister of Transport, your local member and the Shadow Minister. I think many letters is better than one letter with many signatures so please, please, write one and send it off. It is only a matter of time before these ludicrous rules are put in place elsewhere and our freedom to fly is completely eroded. Let's not let it get that far. Your local members contact details can be found at: Alphabetically - http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/mi-alpha.asp By electorate - http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/mi-elctr.asp Other contact details are: Anthony Albanese Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government PO Box 6022 Parliament House Canberra ACT 2600 [email protected] Warren Truss Shadow Minister for Infrastructure and Transport and Local Government 319 Kent Street Maryborough, Qld 4650 [email protected] I have also attached copies of two letters that have been written so far. These were written by my brother and myself. Feel free to distribute them and show anyone who cares. So write a letter (plagiarise the ones here if you like) and send it off. Mail, email it, call the offices of the people above, I don't care! Just get some motivation and take the five minutes out of your day to try and stop this stupidity. Post your letters here to let others get an idea of what has been written. It might help to prompt others into action. It isn't much point having just a couple of people doing this so don't be lazy! And if you don't write a letter then you revoke all rights to complain about security measures in the future! :) Posting here with a rant doesn't count either. Cheers, Mick. Michael Monck.doc Phil Allen.doc Michael Monck.doc Phil Allen.doc Michael Monck.docPhil Allen.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 As well as your local member have a go at the culprits of this madness. [email protected] Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government Office of Transport Security GPO Box 594 Canberra ACT 2601 http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/transport/security/contact.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 R u serious...30 mins notice...oh my god..when will this stupidity end..what exactly is the problem...r they concerned about a 9/11 style attack??...i mean c'mon man...how much carnage will a jab cause if flown into parliment house??..or a cessna??...what exactly is the story?? some dude probably got paid some rediculous salary to come up with these sort of recomendations..unbelieveable...jeeees im mad.. snap out of it you fools...no-one cares enough about you to try and kill you..wankers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 R u serious...30 mins notice...oh my god..when will this stupidity end Who knows but if we are stupid if we don't try to stop the stupidity. A recent government issues paper posed the following questions: Is the current charging regime for provision of security screening services equitable between major metropolitan airports and regional airports? Should alternative arrangements be put in place? The current focus of the aviation security system is regular passenger transport services. Should it be extended to include aircraft providing, for example charter services? Is the security infrastructure at airports adequate? Should we expect the same security technology standards from all airports regardless of location, the traffic levels at the airport, and the costs? There are numerous more questions that have been raised in the same paper but to me those that I have mentioned above suggest that these measures are being considered for more places, not just major airports. The full paper can be accessed at http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/files/AviationIPapril2008.pdf I also note another paper which examines the effectiveness of anti-terrorism measures in general. It notes that most measures that have been implemented result in a benefit - cost ratio of less than 1. That is, the benefits are far outweighed by the costs. The gap between costs and benefits in most scenarios they examined is so great that there would have to be significant improvements to generate some sort of benefits, in some instances the returns are as low as 4cents for every dollar spent - would you invest in this? The paper is mainly focussed on the US experience but it is not too much of a stretch to extend the results to Australia. This paper can be viewed at http://www.copenhagenconsensus.com/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File=%2fFiles%2fFiler%2fCC08%2fPapers%2f0+Challenge+Papers%2fCP_Terrrorism_-_Sandler.pdf Let's not take this lying down. If we sit here with our mouths shut and do nothing then it won't be long before these pathetic attempts at security go well beyond Canberra and into the local strip you use each weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Flyer40 Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Who saw yesterdays article by Ross Gittins in the SMH? It was titled "The terrifying cost of feeling safer" and is worth a read. Apart from stating the obvious about the security measures existing merely to make people feel safer, rather than actually making them safer, he dealt with the lack of economic justification for most of the so-called security measures. Each year there are four times as many people killed on Australian roads, than there are killed by terrorism in the entire world. But don't expect things to get better anytime soon. The campaign of hysteria is so effective that only 10% of voters think too much is being done to prevent terrorism. Which means that governments of all persuasions will keep on spending our money on bogus security measures to get themselves re-elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 But don't expect things to get better anytime soon. The campaign of hysteria is so effective that only 10% of voters think too much is being done to prevent terrorism. Which means that governments of all persuasions will keep on spending our money to get themselves re-elected. So are you saying we should take it as it comes then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Flyer40 Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 So are you saying we should take it as it comes then? No I'm not saying that. Settle down. I'm going to write a letter as you suggested. What I'm saying is that I'm not optimistic that common sense will prevail anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Settle down. Just irks me this crap that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 9/11 Did NOT happen here!!!!!!!! Having just returned from a trip to the USA I am amazed to learn first hand that we here in Australia have had a much bigger, unthought out, knee jerk reaction to terrorism in the air than what has occured in the USA. The focus of anti airborne terrorism in the USA is almost solely on large scale RPT type flying. To anyone with any sense this is where the need is. Not in the area of light recreational flying. During the week of Air Venture at Oshkosh there were around 10,000 aircraft fly into and out of Oshkosh. I did not see one ASIC or a single throttle lock. At Maryborough aerodrome in Qld, where we have full security measures but no RPT we are campaigning to have the security removed. OTS are disscussing this, but with their wisdom in the mean time are talking about putting up more fencing that will become redundant if the security rating is removed. There has already been $850,000 of tax payers money wasted on securtiy measures on this airport alone. I guess that some people in authority must think that this is not enough and it would be best to waste some more. I belive that the terrorists are winning when we have a goverment that is prepared to waste money on security measures that are ill thought out and unnecessary while our hospital and education systems go down the tube!!! :hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybum Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Methinks the owners of the lease at CB are just trying to pee you off so you will go somewhere else. If I remember right they made the news about charging a heap for parking and moving all the GA onto the grass. Havent flown in so only going by reports. Doesn't sound right, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Airsick - I had a look at the notams for Canberra - they mention that you must call to get in or out but there is no mention of the 30 minutes - is that the response time that they have to a call or is it documented elsewhere ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I rocked up at the gate one day only to find the codes had been changed and there was a number posted. I called the number and was told that I would have to give 30 minutes notice in future. This brings up another point, the lack of notification about the change in procedures. In order to get the old access codes I had to fill in a form with all my details - name, number, ASIC details, etc. They then change the procedures and don't notify anyone of the changes despite the fact they have all the info they need to do so! This is a Canberra related issue and is somewhat related to Skybums post in that they clearly don't give a toss about us small guys. In direct response to Skybums query though I have been advised by the airport that these measures have been put in place to comply with new directives issued by the Office of Transport Security. Sure they could be feeding me a line here but the only way to find out for sure is to query OTS which is why I wrote to the minister for transport (and suggested we all do so we don't get right royally screwed in the end). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Having just returned from a trip to the USA I am amazed to learn first hand that we here in Australia have had a much bigger, unthought out, knee jerk reaction to terrorism in the air than what has occurred in the USA.The focus of anti airborne terrorism in the USA is almost solely on large scale RPT type flying. To anyone with any sense this is where the need is. Not in the area of light recreational flying. During the week of Air Venture at Oshkosh there were around 10,000 aircraft fly into and out of Oshkosh. I did not see one ASIC or a single throttle lock. At Maryborough aerodrome in Qld, where we have full security measures but no RPT we are campaigning to have the security removed. OTS are disscussing this, but with their wisdom in the mean time are talking about putting up more fencing that will become redundant if the security rating is removed. There has already been $850,000 of tax payers money wasted on securtiy measures on this airport alone. I guess that some people in authority must think that this is not enough and it would be best to waste some more. I belive that the terrorists are winning when we have a goverment that is prepared to waste money on security measures that are ill thought out and unnecessary while our hospital and education systems go down the tube!!! :hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead::hittinghead: G'day Mick, to coin a pun, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about cost! One of the intents of people who engage in terrorism is to inflict economic harm. The process of killing people is the terrorists' way of inflicting economic harm. If you stop people moving so freely; if you increase the cost of those people moving around; if you increase freight delays and costs; if you inconvenience people sufficiently that they no longer do things that they should, then the terrorists will see that as success. The paradox therefore is that the ghastly and horrific events of September 11 have had an extraordinary effect on the economic health of not only western countries but the world in general. The dreadful people who perpetrated the events of September 11 must be laughing every day. Why? Because our governments are doing their work for them! By that I mean that in particular the governments of countries like Australia, UK, and the US have massively overreacted and in so doing have caused the economic damage that the terrorists seek. I am in no way suggesting that this was the intention of those governments - that would be absurd. But it is certainly the outcome. This is the point of airsick's post regarding B:C analysis. However usually those analyses do not go far enough in looking at the downstream costs. As for the US having got aviation security right whilst Australia has it wrong. My informants suggest that what you are seeing is simply a set of different, non-overlapping stupidities. They have got it wrong just as badly or worse than we have - they've just gone about it differently. As an aside I'd love to see the B:C case for turning Victoria River Downs into a security controlled AD which is just what we have done in Australia... Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 This is the point of airsick's post regarding B:C analysis. However usually those analyses do not go far enough in looking at the downstream costs. You are exactly right here. As an economist I do this sort of analysis quite often. It is always quite difficult to capture the true extent of costs, both direct and indirect, due to uncertainty. The nature of these costs is quite complex so often for simplicity and tractability they are pushed aside. In many cases this does not change the results to the extent that they are misleading, it simply introduces an error margin. The analysis I mentioned above deals with this error margin in a number of ways, here a couple of them. Firstly, they do not attempt to capture all the costs but what they have done is show that even without the full costs the benefits are still not positive. Secondly, they acknowledge that some of their assumptions may be flawed. To account for this they relax some of the assumptions and test the sensitivity of the results to these changes. Again the results are still a net loss in most cases. As an aside I'd love to see the B:C case for turning Victoria River Downs into a security controlled AD which is just what we have done in Australia... I addressed this point in my letter. I don't think there has been any work of this type done in Australia, certainly none that I am aware of anyway, and it doesn't surprise me in the least. The way our government works is through assertions. A minister or committee comes along and asserts that something needs to be done. Some measures, policies and procedures are drafted and then acted upon. At the end of the day there is usually no test to see whether the measures actually work, just whether they have been implemented. If this latter criteria is met then the bureaucrats give each other a pat on the back, a bit of a pay rise and congratulate themselves on a job well done. In the meantime business suffers, the tax payer suffers and our resources are diverted away from things like education and hospitals into inefficient and ineffective projects such as airport security. The big problem here is that no one is being held accountable for their actions. It is about time something was done. At risk of being repetitive and boring get onto your local member and tell them you've had enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Hey Airsick, remember the most useful thing an ASIC card can be used for is manipulating the lock on the gate. Just to let them know you are not happy send an invoice charging for your waiting time directly to the person on the phone. i bet after he gets a couple of demands to pay he will be waitng at the gate for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 A few of the locals have discussed this option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoast Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Sounds like a case of too many bureaucrats with too little to do thumb_down Does this only happen at YSCB or have people been having problems elsewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 I have heard numerous 'this is stupid' type stories from other places but can't recall any specifics so I too would be interested in hearing other people's experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Flyer40 Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Coolangatta also seems to be going out of their way to make GA feel unwelcome. When you want entry to GA parking, there's no gate code, you have to ring security. They come from another gate and let you in "when they can". And another thing, don't arrive there with a full bladder. They've removed the amenities. On the positive side, the profit-driven airport owners don't own the ATC's there who are very accommodating and a pleasure to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Longden Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Bureacracy gone mad. Letters sent... also to a couple of others as well... such as local member (who relies on a charter flight in and out of Canberra).. as well as the vic senators. I bet Kaz-n-Matt are glad they don't live in Cant-berra any more.;) Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Waste The system is a complete farce... YVRD - Victoria River downs. 1200m gravel. 500km SW of Katherine and on the edge of the Tanami Desert. ASIC card needed for a airstrip with a community population of 200 but no fence's in place. Only regular passenger traffic is a six seat medical charter. Some agricultural usage. YWDH - Windorah, Pop. 60. 1500m Bituman. Fenced, ASIC required and the lock has not yet been installed. 2 years of work. 4 RPT's each week. Metroliner. Cunnamula - ASIC, Fenced, Gate code written in texta on the outside of gate. ??? 2 RPT's each week. Bourke - ASIC, Fenced, Code protected by metal flap. Airport is never manned and access is not difficult. Cobar - Large holes in the fence. Other than at Mount Isa, I have never been asked for a ASIC card and I have hardly ever worn it. A quick inspection of staff working around RPT's will find that a large number will have expired cards. The system has major holes and the requirements for these out of the way strips is just plain knee jerk. Not one fence would stop anyone climbing over them if they had any intent it just slows the legitimate users down. A door doesn't stop a Burgular. Fencing has been a blessing in one form as it has reduced the roo and emu count on the strips. Gibbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Good work Ben, the more of us the better. Keep writing the letters people! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 This is a photo of a sign from London, it appears they are ahead of us in terms of security. You are now suspected of being a terrorist if you: - use a camera - drive a vehicle - travel - call people on a phone - use a computer I guess my predictions weren't too far off the mark. And extending these stupid measures to airports other than Canberra certainly isn't outside the realms of possibility either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Longden Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Mmmm, I guess if you are of the species Human, have two arms, two legs or any combination with or without wheelchair, crutches or any other mobility aid then you are automatically a suspect... Seriously, though, with all these ASIC inconsistencies, has anyone pointed them out in bulk form to the department, and how simply ridiculous the whole thing is? Perhaps A Current Affair might be interested in The ASIC Fiasco.. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieselten Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Being necessarily of a pessimistic nature, I am assuming the security fiasco will get far worse before it ever gets better - if it does at all. The terrorists are definitely winning and will continue to do so until some sanity prevails. With knee-jerk politicians and bureaucrats hell-bent on preserving their jobs, expanding their empires and having increasing amounts of control over the population at large, sanity will not prevail for the forseeable future. As for current affairs television, forget the commercial networks. All they are interested in is ratings. For an accurate, clinical dissection of an issue "Four Corners" is the Exocet missile of investigative journalism. It rarely misses and usually goes straight to the heart of an issue like a surgeon excising a malignant growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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