Guest Brett Campany Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Last week we went through a seminar about CASA's zero tolerance policy on alcohol and drug use in the world of aviation. As of tomorrow, the 23rd of March 09 CASA can and will be sending people around airports for random drug and alcohol testing. I know this is mainly for the larger airports and more for those in a safety role which also includes aircrew but I believe it can and will only be a good thing to have introduced into aviation. There's more details here Australian Government | Civil Aviation Safety Authority It does however stop the traditional BBQ and Beers in the hanger for some companies but I think it's a small price to pay to ensure the safety of passengers crew and aircraft. Keen to hear your views and thoughts on this, I know it can and will bring a good debate so lets keep it civilized and see what comes out of it! Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 It does however stop the traditional BBQ and Beers in the hanger for some companies. Ah well, They'll just have to drink more Coke and Orange Juice instead! Sorry, I'm not very exiting am I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastclint Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ah well, They'll just have to drink more Coke and Orange Juice instead!Sorry, I'm not very exiting am I? Its better that way. Unfortunately society has been bombarded with so much pro alcohol advertising and having a cold been or 5 after work that its a big part of local culture, so CASA has to do stuff like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I'm all for it, just means social functions outside of work are a no-go and if you're on duty or planning on flying the next day then you'll have to keep it at an absolute minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I think in essentially it is great...BUT...I do have some reservations about the way it has been introduced in the area I work in. I am a Ground Services Agent for a Company that has the contract for one of the major airlines in Australia. Through reading my Ra-Aus mags I knew this was coming several years ago and made copies of the relevant information available to my fellow employees. Since then it has been coming....coming....coming...and is finally here. The only bit of information we have been provided with at work on this is an online presentation that took about 10 minutes to complete about the effects of alcohol and other drugs...since then according to my own research I have discovered that there are/may be penalties attached to returning a positive sample...in the regular training updates provided to airline employees there is mention of penalties of up to $5000 for failing to provide or failing a test. The problem is that no one in the industry seems to have a clear idea of the implications to employees and no one has been told. Under CASA guidelines the cutoff level for alcohol is .02% BAC, Oral Saliva testing will be used for other drugs. The Airlines and contract companies that complete this work have raised the bar higher...Nobody knows how high for alcohol...but they use urine testing for drugs which on CASA's own website they explain the reason they use saliva is because it provides a more effective way of showing levels of intoxication... In my own workplace we have been tested once (by our employer, not CASA) and it resulted in one young bloke being suspended for six weeks or so until he could get the THC out of his system...that is the ingredient in Marijuana that shows up in testing up to 2 months after use. This young bloke is now back at work and agrees along with everyone else that the testing is a good thing as it encouraged him to give up smoking pot...BUT...because Extacy, LSD, Amphetimenes, Heroin etc etc etc are cleared from your urine in 24 hours or less...He has now found a new way to party. So...the testing is great but the way they have left it open for the employers to choose how they test is a very grey area...And you have got to wonder how someone could have a beer before work...be under .02% BAC...and be fine and legal...or have been out all weekend shooting up speed, snorting cocaine, taking pills, then had 1 day to rest and be fine...while the next bloke could have been at a party...had a toke on a joint two months ago...and not be considered ok for work... I certainly know which person I would rather have working next to me or in the cockpit on my flight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I'm all for it, just means social functions outside of work are a no-go and if you're on duty or planning on flying the next day then you'll have to keep it at an absolute minimum. And this was always the rules according to CASA anyway...12 hours between the consumption of alcohol and active duty...but how does a .02% BAC help with this...It is still illegal for a pilot to consume alcohol less than 12 hours before flying...always has been...Maybe it should be Zero??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastmeg2 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Now we'll just sit back and watch until somebodies aviation career is ended just because they gargled some mouthwash one morning . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Bushman Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I thought it was 8 hours bottle to throttle James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Hours? Think it's 8 but you could still be over the limit. (whatever it is). One of my mates kids, blew .11, 10 hours after he finished drinking. The eight hours is so you could have a small drink with your meal. Addicts who get around in a daze shouldn't be around aircraft, cranes etc. but what is happening here makes me a little uneasy. In the past If a pilot was known to be hitting the bottle, ideally, some of his peers would counsel him. Some medications would make you unfit to drive/fly. Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 The RAAus ops manual mandates 8 hour minimum. CASA AOD program mandates maximum of 0.02% BAC. AFAIK the requirements are NOT mutually exclusive - they both apply John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Don't read too much into this. It's for "safety-sensitive personnel." So there's no harm in a beer or 2 after work. Most employers don't allow alcohol in your system anyway, so I would be hesitating to have a beer at a lunch BBQ in any workplace, let alone an aviation related one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 The new RAAus Human Factors exam asks: How long after drinking can a pilot fly? a) 8 hours from first drink. b) 8 hours from last drink. c) 4 hours from last drink. d) It depends on the individual. (this is just from memory, but I did it on Saturday and it's close) Guess which answer they want? Keep in mind that the exam was written by a non-pilot as I understand it, and at times the answers are slightly ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Well the regulations say answer B. Anything else would be incorrect. If D is the answer I'd be asking some serious questions to those that wrote this ridiculous (in your words) syllabus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 d) It depends on the individual. Well I'm not so sure about this because I've never touched alcohol at all, and never will! But I did read somewhere (I think) that it does depend on the individual, because one person can read real high after say 8hrs, while someone else can read clear at 4hrs, and they drunk the same amount... so it does depend on the way your body reacts to it, and how quickly it get's rid of it... best way would be I think, is to get yourself one of those self testers, and test yourself before you go flying, that way you will never get unstuck... you could still read high after 24hrs! problem is if you read high on the authority's tester your gonna be chopped no matter how long ago you took the drink. Just my 2 cents worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLA82 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 encouraged him to give up smoking pot...BUT...because Extacy, LSD, Amphetimenes, Heroin etc etc etc are cleared from your urine in 24 .And you have got to wonder how someone could have a beer before work...be under .02% BAC...and be fine and legal...or have been out all weekend shooting up speed, snorting cocaine, taking pills, then had 1 day to rest and be fine...while the next bloke could have been at a party...had a toke on a joint two months ago...and not be considered ok for work... I certainly know which person I would rather have working next to me or in the cockpit on my flight... I agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferris Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Well I'm not so sure about this because I've never touched alcohol at all, and never will! But I did read somewhere (I think) that it does depend on the individual, because one person can read real high after say 8hrs, while someone else can read clear at 4hrs, and they drunk the same amount... so it does depend on the way your body reacts to it, and how quickly it get's rid of it... best way would be I think, is to get yourself one of those self testers, and test yourself before you go flying, that way you will never get unstuck... you could still read high after 24hrs! problem is if you read high on the authority's tester your gonna be chopped no matter how long ago you took the drink. Just my 2 cents worth Tomo, Unfortunately you have reproduced an urban myth that is not correct, or at least partially incorrect, although your post is well intentioned. While I have been out of that field for a while now, I spent some years full time alcohol testing people in a variety of circumstances. From my experience 2 heavy stubbies will take the average bloke to around 0.05%. Some go a bit higher, some a bit less. Women generally will go higher, particularly on carbonated drinks - champagne's a killer. Most healthy people can break down around 1 standard drink per hour, again, some a bit more, some a bit less. The maximum blood alcohol concentration will ocurr 45 minutes - 2 hours after consumption, and then gradually reduce over time. However the body is a strange being, the reduction is not even, and is best described as 'saw toothed.' I recall one subject who was being tested over many hours, have a 0.06% spike from 15 minutes previous, when put under stess, even though his BAC had been reducing for more than an hour. In some people a meal will delay the onset of the reading, but in others it doesn't, although food generally doesn't keep a reading much lower than somebody who hasn't eaten. Mood does appears to be a significant factor. I have also seen a subject reach a maximum of 0.065% after 27, 7 ounce glasses of Fosters Light, drunk in just one hour. We found in some people, that blood taken from one side of the body, produced a different reading than the other. One subject produced significantly lower results when blood was taken out of his foot, but his other foot produced normal results. Don't ask why, I can't explain it. There are many variables, and these are a couple of extremes. The point of my post, is that there is no correlation between how you feel, and what your BAC will be. Also that just because on one day, you registered a certain reading, the very next day, the same amount of alcohol can produce a very different reading. There is also the argument that the experienced drinker can handle his grog better, than a green person, and to a certain extent this is true. The experienced drinker is practised at masking the effects of the alcohol although reaction time tests for both types of drinker produce similar results, especially for the out of ordinary ocurrence. Subtle signs of intoxication appear quite early, and most people are significanly affected (to the trained eye) at about 0.130%. Some alcoholics can hold it together to around 0.250%, but I've never seen anybody above that level, able to mask their drunkeness. To my mind, the 8 hour rule is a good rule, for the ordinary bloke who has 1 or 2 wines with dinner. For the person who's had a good session, I wouldn't want to be flying with them for at least 24 hours. Cheers Ferris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferris Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I forgot to mention the self testing devices, and those found in pubs. I'm sure the technology will have advanced in the last ten years, but my experience is that they give the owner a false sense of security. Many people have come unstuck relying on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mike_perth Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Well my instructors take on all this is 8 hours till you fly after you have stopped feeling any effects of alcohol i.e. hangover after a big session its 8 hours after you feel normal again and after a wine or two at dinner well its 8 hours after you feel no effects of the alcohol, as he says that is very open to individual interpretation but if you use it sensibly and adhere to the 8 hours then you will know within yourself you have "done the right thing" and have put yourself in the conservative group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Thanks for that input Ferris. Great information. You guessed it BrentC, the answer they wanted was d) It depends on the individual. It's hard to overstate how dangerous I think this answer is. There were quite a number of silly answers. I applaud the idea of a little human factor training and awareness, but someone who knows the subject AND knows aviation should have another look at these exams (there are 2 to choose from I believe). Meanwhile, I'm glad I gave up drinking altogether. I feel heaps better. Got to go to the gym now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Thanks for the enlightenment on the subject Ferris, very interesting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonflyer Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Lets Get real about all of this and applaud Casa on a good decision.. Anyone who thinks they can go out for a night on the Turps, even a mild one, and turn up and be totally switched on, is kidding themselves. I am not against partying, or having a few knock-off's after work, but i don't want to be in the air around hungover booze or drug addled Pilots, and i dont want the aircraft im flying to be fixed by someone in the same headspace.. Alcohol is a depressant, and if anyone's ever tied one on, then they will know that depending on the size of the night,how many beers, what they ate, what time they got to sleep, and how many hours they got, that a relatively "Small" night out, can still leave us feeling a bit foggy or spaced out at best, and wanting to crawl under a rock at worst.Long term and with regular/heavy usage people are basically affected by alcohol 24/7.They are either XXXXed or hungover, and again this will show up on blood tests, and good on CASA for having the balls and common sense to protect us. Good work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I agree Simon...Good on Casa for doing something...BUT...they have not done anything to stop this sort of behaviour...They are not doing blood tests...It has been done in a very XXXX eyed way... But I agree it is a good pathetic attempt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pedrok Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 My latest annual briefing for work's policy used the "it takes a minimum of one hour to get rid of 1 Standard Drink" guide So really its up to an individual to mange and take responsibility for their own actions, rather then the generalised "8 hours guide" - which was really just a guide from previous times and different social standards. From what I have seen of the new policy its no more stringent than most other policies that are in place or being set up. Overcoming the use of "e" and such is always going to be hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Longden Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 It wont worry 99% of the pilots I know.. They know there is too much at stake. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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