Garfly

Oh, thank you.  When you put it that way, even I can understand it.

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I've read the above linked documents.

I don't believe there was anything there that would normally be used to get an airport going.

It was a case of talking to the wrong people and not understanding the correct process.

The people they contacted should have been more forthright and it wouldn't have extended the way it did.

 

However, the main issue here is Goulburn Airport.

To me they did all they could have done.  They were very unlucky to have that cabal of public servants throw a spanner in their works at the last hurdle. 

In fact, the 'main issue' of this thread extends to the region.

From the Original Post

On 14/04/2024 at 10:57 AM, Ian said:

  ... // Any thoughts about where to hangar aircraft in the region would be welcome. I'm still amazed that the national capital only has a single airport within about 100km.

20 hours ago, Jabiru owner said:

Hi fellow Aviators,

Im not one for forums.

I'm a owner of a jabiru J230 been flying all over Australia for the past 14 years for work and recreation. My aircraft is fully decked out for long distance runs, has auto pilot and EFIS ... //  I'm reaching out to see if anyone else is having issues with micro-air transponder upgrade.

 

Yeah, I'd say Forums definitely have their place, for a few reasons.

Anyway, could it be that you'd still be better off with a SkyEcho2 ('entry level' ADSB IN-OUT ) while the rebate is still available and then getting your transponder back (if not your deposit - which'd pay for a subsidised SE2) so that you could still operate in controlled airspace as per normal?  

That Williamsdale proposal was devised and defeated over a decade ago. 

It very much involved the ACT Government.

It was a very bitter experience for the aviation enthusiasts who worked up the proposal very professionally only to be tripped at the last hurdle.

Posting this link again - a detailed telling of the story from their POV

Man, 71, dies when his experimental aircraft crashes in Groveland

WWW.DAILYCOMMERCIAL.COM

---

An unregistered experimental aircraft crashed at the Groveland airport at 1:30 p.m. April 19, killing the pilot, according to the FAA.

Bobby Bailey's own Dragonfly in this video appears to have a ballistic parachute installed.

Presumably the new build that got him hadn't yet.

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

There's an old saying ... "Pilots are like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and fed on Bull$#!t".   Nev

Nice one, Nev.   I wasn't expecting back-up from you on that one ... so all the more chuffed!  LOL   

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

He’s referring to US processes.

I did notice that.

What I haven't noticed is a great deal of difference in that regard locally.

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Too late, the information’s out there and some people will do it now.

Poor benighted, ignorant pilots.  They must be protected them from all and any information that might confuse them.

Aware or not, in his words, it's stuff "they don't teach you in the FAA written or private pilot licence."

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

Go to their last bit of advice. Get in touch with your instructor. What was demonstrated there was very basic and obvious. Generally discussion on line creates more confusion.  IT should be called the unforgiving turn, which they sensibly have. Nev

If you're referring to Juan Browne's little big-push demo ... yeah, basic and obvious; still, you sense some exasperation in his voice: "Look at that, Zero G! ... You cannot stall an aircraft at zero G!".  It's as if he's fed up that so basic a fact seems far from obvious to many who fly aeroplanes or even instruct in them. 

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

TKS

TKS?

15 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Have you got any details of this covenant?

No, I'm quoting 10.5's post:

On 19/04/2024 at 9:50 PM, 10.5 said:

There is a pre existing covenant which specifies that it remain an airport.

14 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

For ADSB out to comply it must have a proper certified GPS source.

Yeah, I think there are a couple of issues mixed up here, Mark. 'Compliance' as to proper full ADSB-out systems is one thing and, as you say, requires, among other things, a certified GPS source.

But the other question is one we've been asking for years: does ATC yet have the ability to 'see' EC devices -  if only as a "situational awareness" tool within their limited range.  That's what the authorities have long been suggesting will happen but I've never heard that it is the case anywhere in the country. (See the article I quoted above, for example)

Do you have any more info on that? 

15 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

so ATC themselves have told me they will only see the Mode C data and not the ADSB data. 
 

I’ve tested this in the air.  Same for the sky echo. 
 

This also from Garmin. 
 

To enable ADS-B Out with a SIL > 3 you will be required to provide the GTX 32ES with an approved GPS Source. If which the standard G3X is not. 

 

Only passing in want I’ve been told. 

Yeah, interesting but puzzling; what ATC (Canberra Approach and/or Tower?) are telling you. Maybe the tech has not trickled down yet or maybe they choose not to deal with any additional "situational awareness" capacity. 

As to the Garmin quote, as far as I understand it, that wouldn't bear on the issue of whether or not ATC have commissioned the gear that lets them "see" EC devices (as foreshadowed in the Flight Safety Australia article [above]).

31 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Thruster my friend, me thinks you miss the point ...

I don't think Thruster misses the point - or even disputes conventional wisdom about straight ahead being best.  

To me he's just putting the emphasis back where it belongs: if you don't get flying speed NOW, you won't be landing anywhere (in the conventional sense).

Juan Browne makes the same point in this 2 minute quickie on the subject.

I got the impression that a buy-back isn't even on the cards.

The hope being that the "pre-existing covenant" (that YGLB remains) will be honoured into the future.

I agree.  FlightChops too, emphatically:

A new contribution by FlightChops:

2 hours ago, BirdDog said:

Same with SkyEcho.  Other airspace users can see it, ATC don't - so my data tells me.

It'd be strange if this remains the case (that ATC can't see SE2 transmissions).

(And even more strange that we don't have clarity on it by now, one way or the other.)

This was written back in 2021 in Flight Safety Australia in an article called  "VFR and Visible"

Can ATC ‘see’ my SkyEcho2?

The prime objective of SkyEcho2 is air-to-air traffic awareness – the device is not certified to the performance standards needed for ATC separation services. Nevertheless, CASA envisages the device being used for situational awareness by ATC.

By early this year, the Airservices Australia ATC system had not been modified to display SkyEcho2; however, it is expected that with a new ATC system on the way, SkyEcho2 transmissions will be displayed to controllers, for situational awareness only, using distinctive symbology which will prevent the application of surveillance separation standards to those aircraft. Given the COVID crisis, there is uncertainty about when this capability may be delivered by Airservices Australia.

VFR and visible _ Flight Safety Australia copy.pdf

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Unfortunately, airport/strip closures will become a sign of the times 🤢

 

https://www.facebook.com/100063952303049/posts/pfbid0RSzuGNB7GpnEoxRnSf66oU83qzsyrdicticxyf1M8YQqvrFihsZwRVKE2t48iq3Hl/?

The story of Lake Macquarie airport (YLMQ) shows there are still councils around that see value

in having and holding a local airport - and are prepared to resist the importunings of developers who don't.

(And it seems hopeful that Goulburn's among them. Old Bar (YOBR) and Tooraweenah (YTWN)

may be other examples but specific arguments around 'heritage' played a part.)

From Wikipedia's Lake Macquarie Airport page:

For most of its history, the airfield functioned as the base for Aeropelican Air Services  ... Once these services were withdrawn in 2006, the airfield was sold to the Mirvac Group for $5.5 million in 2008.^{[4]   // ...}

Lake Macquarie City Council expressed an interest in maintaining the site for aviation uses. Although the airport is privately owned and council has limited control over the site, zoning restrictions encourage future aviation use. The council rejected a proposal by Mirvac to redevelop the airport into housing estates.^[6] Instead, the council's Lifestyle 2030 Strategy development plan, published in March 2013 identifies the airport as having "ongoing potential for use by commuter aircraft" to serve Sydney and regional areas while generating business and employment opportunities.^[7]

Lake Macquarie Airport - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

3 hours ago, jackc said:

I repost this, final destination oof a Part 103 aircraft to Oshkosh AirVenture

Or, make a ruckus ...

Unfortunately not, apparently:

On 14/04/2024 at 10:57 AM, Ian said:

The historic Currandooley private airstrip which once had 3 operational strips during and after WW2  is soon to be glazed over with solar panels

https://www.blindcreeksolarfarm.com.au/

Any thoughts about where to hangar aircraft in the region would be welcome. I'm still amazed that the national capital only has a single airport within about 100km.

1 minute ago, Methusala said:

Neither of these are available to transient aircraft. There is also a strip mat Lanyon, 10km to the s/w of Tuggeranong town center but I don't like the chances of getting permission for this one either

Yes, and sadly Williamsdale airport doesn't even exist - except as a bitter memory for those who laboured over the plan for years. 

Canberra must be the only city in Oz with no GA friendly facility.

No, Dick's Gundaroo strip is about 15nm north of Canberra.  Williamsdale is about 20nm to the south.

It's a damn shame that the Williamsdale GA Airport for Canberra fell at the final hurdle.

That's probably what the interior of Marine One looks like.