rmorton

Thanks for the offer John. I am in France near to Geneva, I am off to order the kit from the factory in a couple of weeks and wanted to see if they could cut the dash to suit my choice of instruments. It is a little chicken and egg without the size of the dash to see what can fit and how to arrange it. I could still use a basic hand sketch with dimensions. Again thank you.

Thanks, the process seems too simple somehow. The real problem seems to be what to do with the waste.

Just about to start an ICP Savannah which may be of interest to you, very similar to the Zenair but an easier build.... Maybe

I think we have spent too long developing clever software and not enough time doing things. Since all our brightest minds spend their time simulating or programming they are not out in the shed making those Mars bound rocket ships. I remember thinking when I was a child that for a computer to replace a human it would have to be programmed the same way as we were, it would need the same senses and experiences and would take roughly as long to programme. So why bother making an artificial human when making a real one is relatively easy and fun? That way more time in the shed too.

Long time since I studied materials. The chap explained that the oxide layer is porous and the dye effectively seals the surface, if no dye is used then the oxide can provide a very good key for painting. The ideal would be anodise the enclosed surfaces and paint the external, which isn't really practical, although it would look good :)

I may end up doing a bit of both. It is difficult to find alodine is one problem, Then there is the question of how to get rid of the waste. Small amounts I may get away with larger amounts no way. Otherwise there is this Prekote which seems to be a less polluting alternative, but as far as I can tell needs to have a primer to protect it.

Evening all, I had a very interesting visit to a local surface treatment factory today to see if they could alodine treat my future Savannah S kit. After a thorough explanation of the processes and a guided tour of the plant I am left with a problem of how to estimate the cost. They need a parts list and need to have the maximum size of the sheet skins. The tanks were 2.4m long about 20cm wide and 90cm deep. They can "multi dip but obviously that will cost more. So my question is does anyone have a parts list and or drawings with dimensions of the sheet materials. Some interesting thoughts from the list: 1: why dont we anodise our planes? 2: they recon that the treatment can easily be damaged so I guess it can only be left unpainted in enclosed areas 3: Primer and top coat can be applied directly 4: They had an environmentally friendly version so why does Alodine still exist Interesting stuff.

Well before I get my kit I am having a go at some of the skills I will need. One of which is the preparation and painting of the aluminium. To this end I have got some Aluprep and Alodine. Having just had a go I am a little underwhelmed. I was rather hoping for for a significant colour change , however after soaking in the Alodine for the best part of 7 minutes it just seems to have dulled the surface. I will let it dry and then see how it goes. I am not sure yet if this is the route I will go or weather I will try just the Prekote and primer. Still fun trying out , but it does have a sense of emperors clothes about it :)

Thanks, I think you're right its a mental battle rather than a real one and I seem to be breaking the habbit. At the airfield we often get strong gusts and cross winds that leave you wondering who is in control, so it has been difficult to judge what is pushing me to one side. My big advance came after watching a few videos from the states explaining all the torque and other effects that push you to the left. Armed with all that information it somehow seemed easier to correct the drift...

As a newbee I think I know what you mean, but I have only done a few crosswind landings. What I found helped my calmer days was to make the approach with wings lightly dipped to one side and a touch of opposite rudder. It made for better visibility and I was better able to correct my tendency to always land to the left of the centre line.

Brilliant

I think they have had working engines for the past two or three years. However as they explained, the "proving of its reliability" is long and complex process, even for a non certified engine. I am going to order my kit in the next few weeks and spoke to the French agent today and he didnt think it would be available for at least another year. It certainly sounded and looked good in the planes I saw, although I have heard a lot of arguments against V twins I guess we need to have time living with it to really see if it is a really competitor or not.

I asked the question at the factory in September as I would have been interested, however it seemed that to get approval for the engine they need to go through many more hours of flight trials. Whilst we were there we saw several ICP owned planes flying with the new engine si I can confirm that it exists and works. I have the possibility of a reconditioned Rotax engine so will probably go with that

Is that the new V twin? I didnt think they could sell it yet? Would love to know how he got hold of that?

The sites are amazing round here and perhaps my favourite is Lac d' Annecy. Thank you for sharing.

Thank goodness your doing a biplane! That is indeed an impressive amount of work for each rib and no doubt sub-assembly. When I visited the ICP factory much of the "clever machinery and testing was linked to the bending and re-tempering of the ali (which is also a 6061. The difference I think is that they need speed so they soften the metal first press and bend it then temper back to specification. I would love to see the finished ribs and assembly of your plane though.

Just a quick question but do you "press" the ribs to shape them or are they just riveted ? I ask because ICP explained that they re-temper the aluminium by reheating and cooling to fairly precise temperatures when it has been folded or pressed.

Some great advice from Head in the clouds, thank you. I am hoping to get the Savannah kit and is an assembly type build, but I simply dont have the time skills or space to go from scratch with an Ali plane. I know however that the day I finish the kit (if I ever finish) the urge to build will be stronger than ever so a second project will have to be started. You raised some interesting points about sealing joints and laps, The Savannah is a 6061 aluminium and they provide a protective paint for all metal to metal joints, which I assumed was for corrosion protection and sealing. That said if the aluminium protects itself with a layer of oxide doesn't that protect the joint? I am beginning to think that a preparation and epoxy primer are the easiest way to go. I bought some Prekote and Ekoprime to try but for areas prone to fuel spillage I will go for an epoxy primer. Hopefully for internal areas dont require more than that. Th polished look is my favourite however unless I can find a protective clear coating such as the ever shield (not easy to get here) I dont fancy the republish every year that you describe. Really looking forward to more Marty on the subject of painting and even more on the fitting out engine installation etc. Good luck and keep up the good work

Pretty much as per the title I am looking for a template for the latest Savannah dash to see what arrangement of gizmos is possible. Either a dimensioned drawing or a cad file would be wonderful. Are there any hidden limits such as struts and supports? Many thanks Richard

It certainly provides food for thought. I think that some colours do not cover well and so need to have more coats and therefore weigh more, there must also be some differences in density of the various pigments and carriers that go into making up the paint. It would certainly be interesting to do the tests before and after as you suggest.

Yes I think you are right the 5 to kg I remember from my discussion with ICP was probably the total weight to allow for painting and not the difference when using yellow or other thicker paints.

I had seen this on a few of the build logs and it seems to be a minimum starting point. The black paint seems to act as a seal and protective coat to stop corrosion between layers. I was going to prime the surfaces first and do the black gunk. Almost decided that the first few months will be spent sorting cleaning deburring and priming all the parts (aluminium ones that is.

I am sure I will need bigger hose. Definatly worried about the volume of air and the length of hose I have between the compressor and the paint room.

Well the place I visited didn't have anything on display or in stock, but could order in. I think that in view of the comments above and my own doubts I will wait before taking the plunge. £2000 plus is a lot to spend on a windows CE gismo with limited support and I would prefer to hear out what MGL and ipad have to offer first. Thank you all for the input much appreciated