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2 Stroke Oil for Rotax What one?


newairly
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What type of 2 stroke oil do people use for a Rotax 447?

 

Is there any special reason why?

 

I have read recently that synthetic 2 stroke oils, while having many good properties, are not too good for long term protection since they drain away from bearings and may allow corrosion.

 

Phil

 

 

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Which oil?

 

Unless you use the engine a lot, I would not use the synthetics although some makers say that their formulations have additives that counteract the corrosive effects of moisture. I would recommend Valvoline Racing two-stroke, as it is a high-performance MINERAL-based oil. While the output of these engines is not high , due to the need for reliability, it is worth getting an oil that has a reserve of "performance". My main concern is to ensure that the carbon build-up under the rings is minimised as this can be a reason for ring seizure, and sudden failure. ( Strangely enough, this doesn't get a mention in the Rotax 2-stroke material on the web. that's supposed to be the last word). The other thing is to ensure your mixture( EGT's) are right on, as no oil will save you if they are lean. Nev...

 

 

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If you can get a copy, a recent edition of the HGFA/GFA magazine "Soaring Australia" had an article called (I think) "The Good Oil" which covered this subject.

 

I can't recall which month it was but doubtless someone else will know.

 

 

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  • 5 months later...
Guest pgpete

oil and the 447.

 

In my experience with the 447 - you have two competing requirements.

 

mineral oils are apparently better at corrosion protection, and considering that most pilots only fly at most 50 hours a year - it means that our engines spent a lot of time sitting around rusting in the hangar.

 

on the other hand the rotax use a ring technology that use the expanding gases from combustion to push the rings against the walls of the cylinder to provide a good seal. unfortunately that means that you can get a carbon deposit building up behind the ring and if the rings stick from too much carbon you could get cylinder bore damage from the stuck ring, as well as poorer performance from gas blow-by.

 

so what you need there is a "low-ash" oil because less ash means less carbon build-up. Most synthetics are also low ash.

 

I used to use Castrol TTS. and had a good run with it. but if you can find a low ash mineral oil you'll be getting the best of both worlds.

 

 

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penrite stopped making the green slime (TS40C) last year but have interduced another 2 stroke oil called Penrite HI-PER 2 Stroke Oil which seems to have similar properties to TS40C. its ash content is 0.11% compared to 0.17% for Activ 2T oil. penrite has written a disclaimer for this oil being specifically not suitable for ultralight engines - supposedly to get them off there back legally speaking.

 

 

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Hello, Does anyone use any other additives in their 2 or 4 stroke engines?

 

I'm using Yamaha "Ring Free" in my R/C engine (Petrol) , and it definately keeps it cleaner and stops the varnish and grunge build up if the engine is left for periods.

 

This additive was designed for outboards, I think. Some people swear by it, others think it's 088_censored.gif.2b71e8da9d295ba8f94b998d0f2420b4.gif. The dosage is quite small.

 

Sorry For hijacking your thread.

 

RJM

 

 

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Take a look at

 

http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm

 

They compare 4 types of 2 stroke oil using 4 brand new Rotax 503 engines. A very meaningful test for most ultralight owners.

 

Pennzoil comes out extremely well and is what I use. It is low ash. $33 for 4 litres at my local stockist. Cheaper than the Castrol at Repco.

 

Phil

 

 

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From the reading I've done (including the article from 'Soaring'), it seems that an oil like Penrite Hyper 2 is correct for air cooled 2 strokes( 447 and 503), but a predominately mineral oil base is the one for water cooled engines. The difference has to do with the internal temperature differences between the 2 types of engine. I'm willing to be corrected and enjoy this thread. Hopefully we will reach concensis on the subject without coming to blows. I would have stayed with green slime but in its absence use Castrol Activ 2t in the 582. It claims to offer residual corrosion protection over inactive periods. Regards, Don.

 

 

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Loyalty/ oils.

 

A sort of brand loyalty comes into this with a lot of people and you ask what proof they have that (Brand X ) is the go, and there is no real reason, available. ALL racing two-strokes are watercooled today, and they put out a lot of power, (per litre). They would all recommend synthetics. I personally don't believe that they (synthetics) are necessary in the Rotax's (2-strokes). Regarding the temperature reached in Rotax aircooled verses watercooled, when the pistons fail, they are at a similar temperature in both types of engine, The air cooled engine warms up a lot quicker and I like that

 

There is a question of moisture retention with synthetics, and this is a problem with ball and roller bearings, where pitting will occur, though as I have mentioned earlier, some oils claim to have additives to combat this.

 

IF Pennzoil are prepared to put their name to an oil for aircraft use, then that has to be a significant indicator of a standard existing, and I would take that into account. I judge the "happiness" of an engine, pretty much by the lack of carbon in the ring land area, as this is where the breaking down of the oil due to heat, will be most evident. If an engine is not tuned correctly, particularly with mixture, it will run super-hot anyhow and any oil will carbon up, in the area mentioned, and your engine is not reliable, (even if it is brand new.) Nev..

 

 

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From the reading I've done (including the article from 'Soaring'), it seems that an oil like Penrite Hyper 2 is correct for air cooled 2 strokes( 447 and 503), but a predominately mineral oil base is the one for water cooled engines.

penrite Hi-Per 2 oil is predominently mineral based oil with some synthetic additives added to it, same as Pennzoil two stroke oil

 

 

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Hello Guys,

 

I am From Panama City Central America and here the weather is always hot and we have almost 100% humidity.

 

All of the ultralights in our club use Rotax engines (582 and 503) and ALL of us use Penzoil 2 Cycle Oil from long time ago and our experience with this brand is exellent.

 

On the 582 we use the Penzoil that meet TC-W3 (Watercooled Engines) and the 503 use Penzoil oil that is formulated for air cooled engines.

 

If you can get Penzoil in your country, I will recomend that you get that brand and use that one only.

 

I am pretty sure that there are others brands that can protec your engine too, but if you go to others forum and ask the same question, I will say there will be a big % that use Penzoil.

 

Good Luck,

 

Isaac

 

 

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  • 7 months later...
penrite stopped making the green slime (TS40C) last year but have interduced another 2 stroke oil called Penrite HI-PER 2 Stroke Oil which seems to have similar properties to TS40C. its ash content is 0.11% compared to 0.17% for Activ 2T oil. penrite has written a disclaimer for this oil being specifically not suitable for ultralight engines - supposedly to get them off there back legally speaking.

I have nearly 20 litles of slime that was given to me, however I am not using it. I heard on the grape vine that they had a lawsuite brought against them for the slime and an engine failure.

 

Michael

 

 

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I used to use Castrol TTS for a 503 ran well no oil related problems.

 

I thought Penzoil is no longer in production from the US suppliers so choices will be limited. Just dont use any oil for outboard motors they run colder and that oil will not be good on a 447

 

Ralph

 

 

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OK oil.

 

Valvoline racing Two-stroke is available from Repco outlets in 1 litre quantities only. two-stroke oils are getting hard to access. The Pennzoil site in australia does not mention the two stroke oil that Pennzoil have done considerable testing with in the USA for aircraft use. I have always been happy with the Valvoline product mentioned above. Nev..

 

 

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Guest keeffe

Another thing some of you might be interested in is that the octane of fuel is reduced by as much as 3-5 points after oil is added to it.

 

 

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On the subject of fuel additives- Ethanol.

 

Are we all aware that BP Regular Unleaded contains Ethanol? [unbranded].

 

I recently contacted BP, Mobil, Caltex and Shell explaining that I flew Microlight Aircraft [they all took fright at first] and needed the truth on ethanol percentages.

 

The problem it seems is that the Government has mandated the use of 10% ethanol in Petrol, but the document is badly worded so that it doesn't explain whether this percentage applies to all Petrol sold or Petrol sold at individual Service Stations or literally Regular Unleaded only. BP Australia have taken the last interperetation assuring me that their 95 and 98 octane fuel is ethanol free. Mobil, Caltex and Shell have similarily declared that if their fuel contains ethanol it will be branded as E10. Some hinted that, perhaps to be sure, I should buy Premium.

 

Another concerning factor is that taxpayers subsidise ethanol at a rate of 5cents a litre. An indipendant automotive organisation has tested and found ethanol concentrations as high as 18%. The advice from that is to view most discount fuel as containing a 'shandy'.

 

Safe flying etc.

 

 

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Guest keeffe
Are we all aware that BP Regular Unleaded contains Ethanol? [unbranded].I recently contacted BP, Mobil, Caltex and Shell explaining that I flew Microlight Aircraft [they all took fright at first] and needed the truth on ethanol percentages.

The problem it seems is that the Government has mandated the use of 10% ethanol in Petrol, but the document is badly worded so that it doesn't explain whether this percentage applies to all Petrol sold or Petrol sold at individual Service Stations or literally Regular Unleaded only. BP Australia have taken the last interperetation assuring me that their 95 and 98 octane fuel is ethanol free. Mobil, Caltex and Shell have similarily declared that if their fuel contains ethanol it will be branded as E10. Some hinted that, perhaps to be sure, I should buy Premium.

 

Another concerning factor is that taxpayers subsidise ethanol at a rate of 5cents a litre. An indipendant automotive organisation has tested and found ethanol concentrations as high as 18%. The advice from that is to view most discount fuel as containing a 'shandy'.

 

Safe flying etc.

Good investigative work Allowera.

 

For those of you that don't know Ethanol is much like metho in that it can absorb water. Also Ethanol can inhibit the rapid mixing of oil with fuel and can also separate the oil and the fuel. OIL COMPANIES STRESS DON'T MIX 2T OIL WITH ETHANOL

 

Another BIGGER problem is the Stoichiometric mixture (air fuel ratio) when using ethanol based fuels.

 

The Stoichiometric ratio for non ethanol based fuels is 14.7:1.

 

The Stoichiometric ratio for ethanol is 9:1

 

So as you can see if you run ethanol based fuels in a machine not correctly jetted for the quanity of ethanol in your fuel, you will be running lean.

 

And I would not recommend leaving any fuel with ethanol content mixed with oil for any length of time.

 

If you are running a fuel injected machine you are going to get a good Stoich, however I have found vehicles loose power running ethanol as the stoich of 9:1 means less fuel per cycle = less horses.

 

Michael

 

The degree of survival is equal the the angle of arrival.

 

 

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Branding.

 

It should be reasonable to "know" what it is that you are buying. Engines do not like running lean and could fail, as well as the deleterious effect on some of the materials comprising the fuel system. . (NOT IMPRESSED) Nev..

 

 

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On 13 Dec 2008 I wrote to my NSW local state member, Richard Torbay, asking him to make representations to the appropriate Minister seeking clarification of the status of the use of Ethanol in motor fuels, with special regard to the danger to aircraft engines.

 

I recieved a prompt reply from Richard Torbay saying that he had made these representations . So far there has been no response from the Minister responsible, the Hon Tony Kelly, Minister for Lands in NSW. I await his response, but not holding my breath!

 

There is a simple test for Ethanol in fuels which is to add a measured volume of water to a measured volume of fuel. Shake it up and remeasure the water volume. Any increase is caused by absorbtion of Ethanol. A graduated measuring cylinder is ideal. eg. if you start with 100ml of fuel, add 10ml of water, and it becomes 15ml then Ethanol is 5% by volume.

 

Any Ethanol in fuel not labeled to contain it would probably be a breach of product description regulations, or some such and could be investigated by the appropriate authority.

 

Phil

 

 

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