Guest Maj Millard Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I have been involved recently with two crashes up in this area, involving friends. The first before Xmas, when an experienced pilot was taking a friend for a promised birthday ride, in his kit-built Safari helicopter (formally Baby Belle). Not long after lift-off, he suffered an inflight physical incapacitation.It was thought initially to be a heart related problem, but tests indicated not. Anyway the pilot crashed and rolled the helicopter whilst attempting an emergency touch-down, into a suitable ploughed paddock. The passenger was thrown clear with only minor injuries, and the pilot remained in the chopper with a badly broken leg. The quick assistance from local farmers saved the pilots life. A week or two later, whilst visiting him in hospital we discussed the accident. He made the comment to me that... "You can forget lap-sash seatbelts !...it'll be a four-point harness for me in future".............this is a person who should know. More recently about a week ago, friends of mine crashed and destroyed their Savannah Bingo 4T after takeoff. The heavily loaded aircraft experienced a major wind shift right after lift-off, and failed to clear nearby trees. This was a major nose-down impact, that virtually wiped out the aircraft foward of the panel, and the aircraft is unquestionally a write off. The Savannah itseft did as well structurally as it could, and I could see very little with the aircraft that was at fault. The full fuel-tanks in the wings did not spill or ignite, or rupture in any way, even though the foward edges of the wings were both flattened. This aircraft was several years old. I saw the resulting injuries and bruising to the crew, before I viewed the aircraft. I didn't expect the plane to be as bad as it was. The pilot side structure had been cut open to free the pilot, but on both seats, plainly obvious, hung the red ICP supplied four-point harnesses. There was some deformation to the rear structure that they attached to, but it was very obvious that both harnesses had certainly done their job well, as intended in this case. The occupants suffered lower-leg fractures, broken ribs and bruising, but there was only a small amount of facial or head trauma, which would have occurred had they struck the foward portion of the panel area. The passenger has bruising to the right side of her head from striking the side door, but that's all. All are recovering well, although the pilot will require further surgery to his fractured right leg and hip. The huge lesson here to me, is that the four-point harnesses where probabily what saved these peoples' lives !!...Things could well have been different with only lap-sash belts. Several lives each year could be saved with the better restraint systems.. I would highly recommend if you are currently building an aircraft, or have lap-sash belts, to consider full four-point harnesses. They are not that more expensive, and you should never need them, ( we never intend to crash !).But if you do, they could make a BIG difference. I have a four-point in the pilots' position in the Lightwing, and a lap-sash in the passenger side, often occupied by my daughter, or other friends. Both will have four-point harnesses shortly..My recommendations and observations in respect to the belts in this incident, have been passed on the the ops manager Zane Tully, and he has promised to pass them onto the tech manager Steve bell......The aim of the game as I see it, is to stay alive on the bad days too !! ...............................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Agree that 4 is much better than 3, although you can still slide through/under a 4 point harness in a forward impact, so 5 point is even better. Vans supply a 5 point harness as standard in the RV-12 that I'm building, although some builders choose not to install the crotch strap. rgmwa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 You make me feel guilty, Maj. I have procrastinated over the same issue for some time. I flew gliders for years and always a 5-point harness. The Auster came with lap-sash and I have left them there always meaning to replace, but... Now I'll do something about it. thanks kaz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 kaz3g.....your more than welcome...... rgmwa.....I would agree that 5 is even better than 4. However that often takes us into a completly different price range, and often presents insumountable problems with fitting the fifth strap in some UL aircraft because of elevator push rods etc. However if you can afford and fit them, then even better. However the 4-point one's did certainly do the job in this case,..................................................Cheers Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 The lap sash seat belt comes from the days when we didn't even have to have seat belts in vehicles... and then for a while it was only in the front. It is interesting when you think about our shift in perception over the years... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 And only now are manufacturers of small aircraft fitting airbags... kaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Im still surprised how many people get killed in car crashes, because they dont wear a seat belt, when the vehicle is fitted with seat belts.I always wear my seatbelt, I put it on automatically without even a thought. I like flying the Tecnam Golf, because it is fitted with a 4 point harness.The Super Echo has the standard 3 point car type. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 My experience is that a lot of the 3 point types in Ra-Aus aircraft are fairly inadequate... I personally don't like the car style push button buckles...I think a lot of the 3 point harnesses are actually working against safety rather than for... give me a good old sailplane style harness... BUT... these would all be personal preferences for my own aeroplane... I am capable of making an assessment as to the safety of a seat buckle before I hop in an aeroplane... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 My experiences over the years with seat belts is wide and varied. In the airforce I had to disassemble , regrease and reassemble ejection-seat center release buckles, used on Mirages and other aircraft. they had to be greased with a special anti-freeze grease if you can believe that, for high-altitude ejections.. I am here because of a single lap belt after a crash in a C182 in 1974. There's no doubt that it saved my life that day, and also the passenger sitting beside me on the bare floor of that parachuting aircraft. The pilot in front died with a lap-sash, and the other front passenger who was wearing no seat belt, died also. He was sitting on the floor facing rearwards against the panel. I like seatbelts, without then you'd be buggered in most crashes be it either auto or plane. Ag pilots love seat-belts, as they use them a lot, and most there are either four or five point harnesses. I've never seen a lap-sash in an ag-plane !! I really like those red 4-point ones in the Savvy that my friends were in the other day !!..........................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I'm an absolute fan of seatbelts, too. Started fitting and wearing them in my car back when you were either a lair or a woose for wanting them... I survived but some of my critics didn't. I used 5 points when gliding and wore a Slimpak but confess I never had the courage to jump with the latter. Things would have to go really bad first. Glad the jump ship experience didn't end your flying activities, Maj. It's nice to be a survivor kaz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tarran Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I agree that a lap sash is of limited use, a 4 point is better and a 5 point (or 6 in some applications) is best of all, but they have to be worn properly, i.e. adjusted so that the lap belt is firm across the hips. As an SES road crash member I have been to a number of bad accidents. In EVERY one I have been to when the driver was not wearing a seat belt they died. I also raced off road buggies for 7 or 8 years. My first car had a 4 point harness and the last one a 5 point. I always felt safer in the car with the 5 point as you were firmly strapped to the seat and could concentrate on driving the thing rather than keeping your seat. Cheers Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hey Maj... in what way does the BIngo differ from the Sav? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Don't quote me but I believe the Bingo might be built a little lighter, with thinner ally in places. They appear to have a slightly smaller cabin, and a shorter nose, and have the LE slats on the wing. The wing may also be a bit smaller than the Savannah classic, or VG/XL range, but once again don't quote me .. They only run smaller engines in the 65 Hp range (IE: the Rotax 503 or HKS 700e) The one involved in the recent crash was a Bingo 4T with the HKS engine. Rest of the aeroplane looks very much like the small brother of the later Savvys.............Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Five point for me. I have four point in the Corby and am sure that a five point will be better in the RV4 I am building. One set cost about $150 from USA and they are really well set up with a quick release button and a setting to make putting them on easy. You do need a strong point under the seat, but that shouldn't be too hard to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Much prefer 4/5 point myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadInTheClouds Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I have had limited experience with aircraft seatbelts, only in 3 types of lighties and commercial airliners of course. I like the 4 points in the Foxbat I do lessons in, feels a lot safer and helps in turbulence. 5 point would be even nicer though. I flew a J170 once and the lap-sash belt just didn't feel like enough. Felt like it was more of a formality and wouldn't provide any real protection. Was a backseat PAX in a PA28 once, and the lap belt only in that felt wholly inadequate and not really reassuring at all, lucky it was a calm day. I always get funny looks from most people who sit next to me when flying commercially because I do the belt up so tight for takeoff and landing, and I always cringe when people undo their seatbelts the second the light goes off on climb and then dont put it on again until told to before landing... very silly... If I ever buy my own aircraft one day, I will never buy one without a 4 point belt at the minimum or at least the option to have one put in, and I would probably try have a 5 point fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I much prefer the 4/5 point. However I'd be interested to know if their are any statistics that compare the safety of 3 point vs 4 point. I guess 4/5 point is easy to fit to our 2 seat RA aircraft, but it would be more difficult to fit 4 point to the front seats of a GA 4 seater. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I reckon 4 point Harnesses should be fitted in vehicles.More people would probably be alive today if they where fitted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Brings up the question about 'certified' harnesses or will vehicle ones do? There is a large cost difference between the aviation approved harnesses and the ones used in vehicles, such as racing buggy harnesses. Pud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I've generally used 5 point and recommend them. We are looking at "gound" contact situations here or "aerobatics' specifically for them to be really worthwhile. The mount points have to be up to it or the whole exercise doesn't compute. Lap sash is Ok for inflight turbulence where you may need to ensure that it is quite tight to prevent you hitting the roof with your head. ( I have hit the roof quite heavily even so, but I would have been unconscious without it being tight, for sure.) Pud I reckon the racing buggy would be quite suitable as it does the same type of function. Plane structures can never be built to withstand the forces possible to survive a high ROD ground impact, but landing in a tree canopy and falling out of it, is survivable, as well as tripping over a fence at normal approach groundspeed, with the right harness and some cockpit padding ( which we don't hear about these days).Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I sourced my harnesses from a place at Jandakot Airport where I told the guy the harnesses did not have to be certified as they were for an 'off road' vehicle. He was happy with that, and I was happy with the end result. Pud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I have a four point on the Lazair with a twist to release buckle. A must for this low and slow aircraft as i saw a nasty accident when someone got thrown forwards and had their hand sliced by the prop when they only had a lap harness fitted. I found the car type buckles do not release when they have a load on them as when you are upside down.. (through someone else's misfortune). So if you have a car type release fitted test it to see if it releases when it is loaded. Even from the early Stolaero days we fitted them all with four point. Make sure if you are retrofitting that the anchor mount for the shoulders is above and not below your shoulders otherwise you can suffer from broken collar bones. Hook knife is alway handy to have just in case you cannot release the harness. Ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 That's all good stuff Ozzie. I have a hook knife in the Lightwing on one of the overhead bars, and I always mention it during a pre-ride breiefing (as I did this morning before giving a ride to one of my jabaru mates), old skydiver habit I suppose...don't get caught without a sharp knife when you need one !!...I flew late yesterday for the first time since posting this thread, and it did make good sense clipping up that four point harness. I still have the lap-sash on the passenger side, so that's got to be fixed. In the Lightwing you can attach the shoulder straps to one of the rear wing carry-through tubes.............................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 The lap sash seat belt comes from the days when we didn't even have to have seat belts in vehicles... and then for a while it was only in the front.It is interesting when you think about our shift in perception over the years... Well some perceptions shift....I suspect others of 95.10 origin should all be screaming that things were cheaper and less problematic before we had to have new fandangled seat belts and the 95.10 drivers are subsidising the seatbelt wearing costs of everyone else.....toss out the magazine........ <joke guys...no really ....settle down!!> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 All the lap sash seat belts I have personally experienced have been on GA style aircraft... Most Ultralights seem to be more in line with sport pilots and common sense then practical business men wanting to travel in something as much like their car as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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