David Isaac Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 What Ross didn't tell you is that he was covered in Avgas. So their survival was nothing short of a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Shudder!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Some places use the setting (QFE) where the altimeter reads zero when on the ground. It has advantages as minimums are more recognised as a height above ground, but most of the terrain spot heights will be actual heights and also DME steps etc. (though they are BARO heights.) Misreading altimeters has caused many deaths. You have to change the Kollsman scale at transition height (10,000' varies on QNH) where even an error of 10 on the subscale is 300' . More than enough to compromise your approach.. Thinking your aerodrome ai somewhere near sea level when it is actually some thousands of feet above it is deadly. QNH is standard practice in australia. If you want to do circuit work at one locality It simplifies it.. viz the altimetry.. I would imagine a croppy might do it, although he would just as easily remember the height of the field..Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 How do I look back on the whole thing now, being an active pilot, and as I read this post ?.... Three things stand out above above all to me......1,....An attempted low altitude turn back after EFAT will not work, and will probabily kill you after the inside wing stalls rapidly. 2,...Regardless of your flight experience and training, the temptation to turn, and return to the safety of the strip is extremly strong. 3,...We must as responsable pilots, resist this temptation above all, and must always land straight ahead in a controlled fashion, after an EFAT....................................................................................Maj.... Great post Maj! Yes the temptation is strong, but the urge to complete the pre take off safety brief (as planned) needs to be stronger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 but most of the terrain spot heights will be actual heights and also DME steps etc. (though they are BARO heights.) What is the advantage Nev? Would not that require translation back to Baro height from QFE. ? When im doing instrument approaches there aint alot of room left in the head to be doing maths..hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 That's the reason it is not used here. Your local QNH gives you the information you need to maintain terrain and obstacle clearance but your "brain" has to be AWARE that you arrive reading the aerodrome height. . You should set a "bug" on the altimeter, but that only reads the 100's of feet scale., and it is usually set for the minimum ( Visual or go around) alt, which is more important overall. All this seems pretty obvious but at night and around 0300 your brain needs all the help it can get. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 All this seems pretty obvious but at night and around 0300 your brain needs all the help it can get. Nev For sure. I wouldnt like to be relying on my maths approaching a minima and wondering if I carried the 2..lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwicrusader Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Great post Maj. You are very lucky. I have flown out of Batchelor and can confirm there are no desirable force landing options after T/O, jungle everywhere. At about 500 ft in an empty Ag. Plane I reckon I could make that ex WW2 strip off to the right of centerline. I used to think if this thing stops after takeoff, I will dump the load, and descend straight ahead, hold it off a foot above the jungle canopy until it stalls. This is a very survivable option. As mentioned by many posters before me, a controlled wings level crash, as slow as possible is a much better option than trying to turn around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 The Turnback story, Fighter Pilots, Edited by Jon E. LewisStory by Duncan Grinnell-Milne, training for military service in WW1, in 1915 And now this too expert pilot made his great mistake. ... And so he tried something which, in this instance, he had not one chance in a thousand of bringing off. He turned back to the aerodrome. ... “Now in this particularly stupid case......” ... “A pilot must never turn down wind at a low altitude when faced with the possibility of a forced landing. “A pilot in difficulties after leaving the ground must keep straight on. “A pilot must save himself and his passengers first, not the aeroplane. It is better to smash wheels and propeller than burn a man to death. “A pilot must take particular care to maintain flying-speed after engine failure....” Those were the lessons. If the manner of their teaching was hard, it was also effective. As Motz mentioned in an earlier post, I was also involved in a fatal turnback accident some years ago. ... The pilot and other jumper up front died on impact. Had the full load of fuel exploded on impact, I would not be sitting here writing this. What did Fred have ahead when the engine quit ?....solid trees, ...and a long 5000' strip behind !...He had only a split-second to make a decision, and unfortunatly it was the wrong decision. Fred was not a bad pilot, he was in fact well trained at Bankstown, a commercial pilot, and had flown jumpers, and jump planes for many years. he was a capable, experienced, and current pilot How do I look back on the whole thing now, being an active pilot, and as I read this post ?.... Three things stand out above above all to me...... 1,....An attempted low altitude turn back after EFAT will not work, and will probabily kill you after the inside wing stalls rapidly. 2,...Regardless of your flight experience and training, the temptation to turn, and return to the safety of the strip is extremly strong. 3,...We must as responsable pilots, resist this temptation above all, and must always land straight ahead in a controlled fashion, after an EFAT....................................................................................Maj.... Turbo and Maj: thanks very much for sharing both of these instructive lessons. It has become clearer and clearer that low altitude turn-arounds, as instinctive and intuitive as they may feel, are to be avoided at all costs. These two stories once again prove that this will result in what many pilots have called the "impossible turn". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I would love to be a "fly on the wall" if you guys got trapped in a lift with Chesley Sullenberger, I reckon you could break him in 15 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I wish you were a fly on the wall, then it would be socially acceptable for me to swat you... Buzz off!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I wish you were a fly on the wall, then it would be socially acceptable for me to swat you... Buzz off!!!! Surely there has gotta be somewhere nicer than Toowoomba to spend that holiday Motz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 his students wouldn't let him go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I would love to be a "fly on the wall" if you guys got trapped in a lift with Chesley Sullenberger, I reckon you could break him in 15 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 :thank you:thats right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 [ATTACH=full]17798[/ATTACH] Our learned friend, the fly, keeps referring to US airways flight 1549. The miracle in the hudson. Apparently he thinks that this landing somehow suports his notion that years and years of tried and tested training is somehow wrong. That turnbacks are infact a viable option in an EFATO. But what he fails to undertstand (despite many attempts to help him) is that the engine failure of flight 1549 occured 3 minutes after the takeoff, at a height of more than 3000 feet, in a jet weighing in excess of 70 tonnes. FT, go for your life, turn back if you want. Just inform any passengers BEFORE you take them that if the engine fails on upwind you will be doing your absolute best to kill them. cheers 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Don't complain to me, who put you in the dam thing in the first place?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Is that your pre takeoff safety brief for your PAX? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Reading in the RA mag "Sport Pilot" in the letters to the editor I came across something that I just wanted to make sure gets out there. Kevin doesn't mince words and what he says I feel needs to be echoed over and over.I hope you don't mind me posting what you said here Kevin! Below is written by CFI Kevin Walters: Good stuff I reckon. [/quote I've known or been associated with more pilots who have killed themselves than I can count on my fingers and toes. This thread is really about flying the safest profile regardless of rules and regulations. For example, a pilot who previously owned my Sapphire was killed when he had an engine failure over tiger country. No rule prohibiting flying over tiger country. Knowing the unreliability of piston aircraft engines, I would not bet my life on my engine continuing to run anywhere-which is what my friend did, and lost. Don't fly over tiger county in a single engine plane, do or don't turn back in an engine failure, etc. Work it all out before you go, as if the engine is going to fail on every flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avspectator Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 How do I look back on the whole thing now, being an active pilot, and as I read this post ?.... Three things stand out above above all to me...... 1,....An attempted low altitude turn back after EFAT will not work, and will probabily kill you after the inside wing stalls rapidly. Maybe I'm confused here; but the inside wing in any turn left or right will have the lower angle of attack. Therefor the outside wing has the higher angle of attack and will stall first. Maybe I don't understand my aerodynamics or I didn't read the post right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Gday Avspectator. The inside or lower wing has a HIGHER angle of attack in a descending turn. Therein lies the problem. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 How do I look back on the whole thing now, being an active pilot, and as I read this post ?.... Three things stand out above above all to me......1,....An attempted low altitude turn back after EFAT will not work, and will probabily kill you after the inside wing stalls rapidly. Maybe I'm confused here; but the inside wing in any turn left or right will have the lower angle of attack. Therefor the outside wing has the higher angle of attack and will stall first. Maybe I don't understand my aerodynamics or I didn't read the post right. The higher A o A will be on the inside wing and will stall before the outside wing, so I learned from the Aircraft Technical Knowledge module. Perhaps a more experienced pilot could confirm this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Perhaps a more experienced pilot could confirm this? Until one of them turns up... Yes, the lower wing has a higher angle of attack in a descending turn. In a climbing turn however its exactly the opposite. Easy way to remember " When your goingDOWN, the down wing stalls first, when your going UP, the upwing stalls first. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avspectator Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Back to the aerody books for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwicrusader Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Provided you are in balance guys... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now