Sapphire Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 HITC said:Try it - if the controls are left completely alone in my experience the plane will invariably end up in a spiral dive. I owned an a/c that had trim in yaw, pitch and roll. You could set it up for hands off flying until it dropped a wing ffrom turbulance. In smooth air you could roll the a/c by just tilting your head but that became tedious and unprofessional looking. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 If you don't like bumps when you fly, maybe just stick to driving........on the nice smooth roads........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nunans Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 If you don't like bumps when you fly, maybe just stick to driving........on the nice smooth roads........ I know what you mean. People are used to driving on bumpy roads that would equate to moderate turbulance and don't even think twice about it, they are being exposed to this motion even from before birth and the general population have many tens of thousand hours in cars and buses over thier lifetimes besides your brain is all good with it because you can often see the pot hole approaching on the road and you're expecting the bump. In aircraft however, somebody new to flying doesn't expect the bump, there's nothing to see approaching (unless it's terra firma) so your brain senses mixed inputs and makes you throw up in some circumstances to rid your body of the poison that you must have recently consumed that's affecting your senses. It doesen't matter how much you get used to it though, unless you're trying to thermal soar in a glider, smooth air is more plesant. Thanks for the tips OzMoz builder if I end up doing the flight I'll take your advice on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 It is pretty easy to experince weightlessness in turbulence. Most find this an unusual experience and think they are in an "airpocket" What a silly term. There is no such thing but you are just transitioning from a mass of air going one way to one going the other way. There is a certain level of anxiety sometimes justified as the plane can have large loads placed on it. You should adopt the safest way of flying in these conditions. Flying at the best turbulence penetration speeds limits the load you put on the airframe and no abrupt control inputs. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Nu said: they are being exposed to this motion even from before birth Especially if your mother was a professional wrestler. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted December 19, 2012 Author Share Posted December 19, 2012 For me its not about the g force on me or the plane and not worried about the plane breaking up! its the momentary loss of control(or control deviation) that I find hard to get used to . Being somewhat of a control freak I dislike the feeling of the plane deviating without my input. In the car I can hit bumps but the car does not deviate off the road or bounce into the air(unless on QLD roads) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The bumps in a plane are bigger. Look at your altimeter as you go through them. You don't do 50ft bumps in a car, unless of course you are on a Qld road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 You are very unlikely to lose control of a 3 axis plane in turbulence. The air, ( your medium) is always moving, falling down hills when it is cold tumbling upwards under a cumulus cloud on a hot day to 200 kt winds at altitude ( jetstreams). Even gentle mixing in some fogs . You have to learn that you can't drive in the air like you can drive a car. Your grip on the air is by reacting to it aerodynamically., not by grip on anything. Even the largest of aeroplanes are affected by down bursts etc. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I dont think its the up and down that is the problem. It is the wing droping without notice in thermals and gusty weather that tends to be uncomfortable. I do a lot of Xcountry flying in the X air and find that in Summer I have to go high (5000 plus) to get out of the thermal layers. Or I cam stay at 4500 to 6500 and ride the bumps out. I know the aircraft is strong enough to take the bumps and track deviations both in yaw and pitch but it still remains a good feeling when you get out of the area. Case in point... last saturday, left Goulburn arrived Bathurst, good weather. Left Bathurst for Mudgee, still reasonable but mechanical turbulance building over the ranges. Departed Mudgee and the rotor was operating above the airport, lifted off, and at about 100ft the aircraft dropped a wing and it was a battle to get it straight and level. Continued north to Casillas area over the plains and had to climb to 7500 to get some smooth air. Thermals giving 800ft up and down with pitch and yaw excursions in the uncomfortable range. At 55kts cruise you tend to be in the rough for a bit longer than usual. The rough lasted untill 200ft above ground and then totally disappeared. You can imaging what the crosswing approach deteriorated into. Yep, bump tolerance is a really good thing and the onl;y way to get used to it is to trust your aircraft, fly in it a lot and relax. Have fun. (by the way, the return trip to Goulburn was just as much fun.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 If you have a plane that tends to have a lot of adverse aileron effect, using your rudder a bit more can help getting the wing up. don't overdo it, but a dropped wing is a bit hard to get up sometimes just by using aileron and if your speed is a bit slow the rudder to lift the wing is a safer bet. Use both together, don't be afraid to bring the rudder into it. Watch out for overcontrolling. ( fighting it too much). most planes have a fair bit of natural stability and this negates some control inputs..Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 For me its not about the g force on me or the plane and not worried about the plane breaking up!its the momentary loss of control(or control deviation) that I find hard to get used to . Being somewhat of a control freak I dislike the feeling of the plane deviating without my input. In the car I can hit bumps but the car does not deviate off the road or bounce into the air(unless on QLD roads) (sorry if I repeat anyone - havent read all posts) Yea mate unless you get stuck flying in REALLY bad conditions or if its gusty and unstable during landing - I think your fear is unjustified, but that's ok, we all fear different things, usually irrationally, but the fear is there to protect us I suppose. It's just a shame that it could be affecting your enjoyment of flying. If you are just flying around (not landing/t-o) then just 'ride' the bumps and enjoy them, the plane will Never fall out of the sky uncontrollably (unless as I said before you were flying during a storm or a big CB) plus with height, even if you did get tipped right over here then back there then up and down, you're not going to crash. I fly the lightest version of the drifters, a maxair XP and a butterfly flapping makes it jump around, honestly if one bump lifts the left wing I dont even correct it (unless I HAVE to) because I know that the very next bump will lift my right wing etc etc you get my point. I just float up the updrafts then sink merrily down the other side dont even move the stick or the throttle.......why fight the air and make life tough......we fly in an ever changing moving bubbling mass of air and unless you are in the circuit or maintaing specific height for a reason (i.e hemisph.) just RIDE the air and enjoy it!!! Plus is it a lightwing you fly? They have incredible control authority all throughout the flight envelope the chances of a gust making you lose control would have to be the type of air that you should never have gone up into anyway..........I hope this helps, of course I am not an instructor but this is what was taught to me and I really want to help you because I used to be scared of bumps when I was younger but keep getting up there and youll find the bumps fun = not a good idea to be one of those fair weather only pilots who suddenly find themselves out of depth.....Hope this helps and I hope no one on this site is too harsh on me if they dissagree, but id love to hear.... Dave 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I had a plane that behaved like that too with at times the heading forced away 45 deg. Though you have more control in ground effect when landing. Practice on a computer flight simulater while jumping on a trampoline to get a better feel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooda Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If you have a plane that tends to have a lot of adverse aileron effect, using your rudder a bit more can help getting the wing up. don't overdo it, but a dropped wing is a bit hard to get up sometimes just by using aileron and if your speed is a bit slow the rudder to lift the wing is a safer bet. Use both together, don't be afraid to bring the rudder into it. Watch out for overcontrolling. ( fighting it too much). most planes have a fair bit of natural stability and this negates some control inputs..Nev A technique that saved me and my passenger during take-off at Tindal last year. ATIS was reporting 10kts gusting 12 kts from 110 with Runway 14 in use (although some gusts felt stronger to my untrained senses). I applied some into-wind aileron at the start of the take-off run but had it centred as we approached 40 kts down the centreline. Without warning, the left wing lifted dramatically and did not respond to immediate full application of left stick. In fact, it kept rising. So there we are, still accelerating at full throttle, nose and left wheels off the ground, left wing well above our heads and still going up, the stall warning sounding and no response to stick pressure. An instinctive boot full of left rudder brought the nose into wind and helped level the wings while the speed built up to a safe climb out speed. Fortunately, Tindal has a very wide runway but I was almost off the edge before things came back under control. Discussing it later with my passenger, a solo level student, he remarked that the ASI had jumped briefly from 40kts to 75kts as the wing lift occurred and that he was rather disconcerted to be then looking down the centreline through his side window. (It hasn't stopped him from pursuing a professional flying career though.) I'm not sure whether we were hit by a rogue gust or a a willy willy but I am very glad the Jab has a high wing so the right hand wing tip just stayed clear of the surface. I'm also very grateful to the instructor who taught me about the secondary effect of the controls. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Probably a "dust devil". They can affect even large aircraft. You are too far inland to get a sea breeze wind change, which can sometimes be nearly as bad. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 A technique that saved me and my passenger during take-off at Tindal last year.ATIS was reporting 10kts gusting 12 kts from 110 with Runway 14 in use (although some gusts felt stronger to my untrained senses). I applied some into-wind aileron at the start of the take-off run but had it centred as we approached 40 kts down the centreline. Without warning, the left wing lifted dramatically and did not respond to immediate full application of left stick. In fact, it kept rising. So there we are, still accelerating at full throttle, nose and left wheels off the ground, left wing well above our heads and still going up, the stall warning sounding and no response to stick pressure. An instinctive boot full of left rudder brought the nose into wind and helped level the wings while the speed built up to a safe climb out speed. Fortunately, Tindal has a very wide runway but I was almost off the edge before things came back under control. Discussing it later with my passenger, a solo level student, he remarked that the ASI had jumped briefly from 40kts to 75kts as the wing lift occurred and that he was rather disconcerted to be then looking down the centreline through his side window. (It hasn't stopped him from pursuing a professional flying career though.) I'm not sure whether we were hit by a rogue gust or a a willy willy but I am very glad the Jab has a high wing so the right hand wing tip just stayed clear of the surface. I'm also very grateful to the instructor who taught me about the secondary effect of the controls. Yes, pretty much standard stuff for Tindal and most of the inland top end October to March. Approaching any time after 9am you'll see lines of willies in the trees all around, mostly very short lived, just low-level inversion breakthroughs as the ground heats rapidly and the air masses become very unstable. Tindal runway is particularly bad, sometimes it's hard to get a light aircraft to land and stay down. Keeps you on your toes and gives you a new appreciation for the flying conditions further south. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooda Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 You are too far inland to get a sea breeze wind change, which can sometimes be nearly as bad. Know it well Nev. Spent a couple of years flying in your neck of the woods. Still remember watching a C150 at Penfield look like it hit a brick wall on downwind when the 20kt northerly swung to a 30kt southerly in the blink of an eye. pretty much standard stuff for Tindal sometimes it's hard to get a light aircraft to land and stay down My first visit to Tindal. I should have realised something was up when my earlier landing had proved more adventurous than usual. Ah well. We live (hopefully) and learn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 A C-150 is not overpowered, but they are strong. I found that out one day with a turbulence experience with gusts over 60 knots as Rutherford. I really thought the wings would detach. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooda Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 You get some surprisingly strong winds down your way Nev. I recall reading of a Tiger Moth going backwards over Sunbury in the 1930's while trying to get to Bendigo from Essendon. Happened to me too in a C150, out past Clarkefield, circa 1976. Recall it was a very rapid RTB when I turned her around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 I was at phillip island some years ago and witnessed a cessna flying backwards in nil wind looked very starnge? I found out later it was a new canard type cessna...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I did that at Blacksmiths beach at a surf carnival when I was spotting Noahs.( Might have been Caves). There was a good NE wind and with a bit of flap out it was easy to just sit in the one spot. Apparently no-one was watching the surf carnival so they got onto the radio station to tell me to clear out. Suppose they had a point but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I did that at Blacksmiths beach at a surf carnival when I was spotting Noahs.( Might have been Caves). There was a good NE wind and with a bit of flap out it was easy to just sit in the one spot. Apparently no-one was watching the surf carnival so they got onto the radio station to tell me to clear out. Suppose they had a point but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Nev[/quote My Dad often talks about flying backwards in a Tigermoth , I wonder if the surfies were legal to be talking to an aircraft, my thoughts would have been to give them a serve," best defence is offense", as for bumps, QLD outback is crazy lumpy from mid morning on, did a trip to Cloncurry at 9500 asl and still got chucked around, Met 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 The radio station is paying for it, so they call the shots. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boingk Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Took a mate up in admittedly very bumpy conditions last week. He was fine until we got back on the ground hahahaha.... did a good job, too, even managed to keep the plane clean! Hot weather plus gusts equals big vertical turbulence, been crazy of late. - boingk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Yeah. You can get to find out what they had for breakfast. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greybeard Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Bananas are good. They taste the same in both directions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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