motzartmerv Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Yea yea, but how did this cause an engine fire?. If he had gotten out and delivered his patient in time for life saving surgery he would have been a hero yea? Easy to judge dead pilots from limited info in the comfort of our computer chairs. An engine fire just after rotate in any twin is pretty much game over regardless of fog or any other wx event. Seems to me he saved at least one life..;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Big fuel leaks are too common. I had one on the ground-seen or heard of many several others. The end result can be loss of fuel to dante's inferno if it ignites. My rule now is if I buy a new plane I replace all the lines, connectors. seals. A fuel fire in flight is worse than an engine failure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 An engine fire at lift-off is about the most critical situation you train for. You get it back on the deck as quickly as possible even skipping full checklists and normal approaches. Time is against you. If you took off in a situation where it is unlikely you have an approach option, IF conditions You would be faced with doing an abbreviated invented approach using GPS with one engine U/S and on fire, perhaps down to ground level, handling the shutdown and fire drill and flying a plane asymetrically at low level. Good Luck You would need plenty of it. It is easy to join the ranks of people who think that the pilot must have done a bad job because the plane crashed. When you get involved with investigating these things thoroughly most times factors emerg that show you that almost anybody would have had a bad outcome. Greece has always chucked pilots who crash a plane in Gaol and ask questions later (If they can be bothered). Look at Greece now. They did a few other things wrong too. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Don't forget to turn off the fuel. One case I read the pilot burned to a crisp and forgot to put the selector to off. Wonder if flying even past vne would subdue the fire-it would if the flames were exposed to the airflow. That fuel to oxygen ratio wouldnt support combustion. I like that idea getting thrown into jail if you crash. And if you were proved to be responsible, then you stay there. If some one else is responsible, you trade places. In a big airliner crash, the scene could be like playing musical chairs in the jail cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Lol.. In a simple world yes. Fuel cock only stops fuel to the engine. It don't help if the engine bay or other components, gear well, baggage comp etc are on fire.. Or even worse, a ruptured fuel tank. You can turn fuel cocks off all you like, it won't make a scrap of difference. We all can speculate and dream about what we would do etc, but imagine being forced with the decision: aeroplanes Is on fire, I need engine power to return to land, but the engine is on fire. What to do? While flying low with the ruder hard over and height decaying, cockpit filling with smoke and the plane trying to roll towards the dead engine after it quits... Then have other pilots years later say oh he should have turned the fuel off... Keep dreaming!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Yea yea, but how did this cause an engine fire?. If he had gotten out and delivered his patient in time for life saving surgery he would have been a hero yea?Easy to judge dead pilots from limited info in the comfort of our computer chairs. An engine fire just after rotate in any twin is pretty much game over regardless of fog or any other wx event. Seems to me he saved at least one life..;) I think the misty conditions is probably entirely irrelevant, clearly the engine failure was the main contributing factor to the crah... It was sad for the people on board that one engine failed just at takeoff. Big fuel leaks are too common. I had one on the ground-seen or heard of many several others. The end result can be loss of fuel to dante's inferno if it ignites. My rule now is if I buy a new plane I replace all the lines, connectors. seals. A fuel fire in flight is worse than an engine failure. That sounds like excellent advice Sapphire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 motzartmerv said: too much In that particular case I referred to, turning off the fuel would have saved the day. The marine fuel pump he installed melted in the normally hot conditions under the cowling. In actual flight you don't always know where the fuel is coming from-turn it off anyways. You don't have time to fly to your dream airport. I only dream in my sleep and I never sleep when I am flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 An engine fire at lift-off is about the most critical situation you train for.You get it back on the deck as quickly as possible even skipping full checklists and normal approaches. Time is against you. If you took off in a situation where it is unlikely you have an approach option, IF conditions You would be faced with doing an abbreviated invented approach using GPS with one engine U/S and on fire, perhaps down to ground level, handling the shutdown and fire drill and flying a plane asymetrically at low level. Good Luck You would need plenty of it. It is easy to join the ranks of people who think that the pilot must have done a bad job because the plane crashed. When you get involved with investigating these things thoroughly most times factors emerg that show you that almost anybody would have had a bad outcome. Greece has always chucked pilots who crash a plane in Gaol and ask questions later (If they can be bothered). Look at Greece now. They did a few other things wrong too. Nev It's a shame they never threw the books-falsifying, spend-like-there's-n0-tomorrow, heavily-borrowing politicians into jail instead! Greece is a millstone around the neck of the whole European community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mates rates Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Don't judge this pilot too quickly.We don't even know what his flight and duty times had been in the last month !! do they work to CAO 48 or an FMS ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Don't judge this pilot too quickly.We don't even know what his flight and duty times had been in the last month! Why not? And what does his duty times have to do with it? If he is a junkie he belongs on the ground and not in any sort of vehicle. Possibly a cardboard box in the parklands would suit.... seems to be where they end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentreau Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Why not? And what does his duty times have to do with it? If he is a junkie he belongs on the ground and not in any sort of vehicle. Possibly a cardboard box in the parklands would suit.... seems to be where they end up. His duty times or an illness could explain him falling asleep. As noted earlier the positive test could be due to legal medicines. That's why you should not judge him until ALL the facts are known. I do hope you're a little more sympathetic in real life than you come across in that last post ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 I have no sympathy for junkies, no and I don't believe this stuff is in legitimate pharmaceuticals. That's why he was sacked. And yes I'm very familiar with extremely long work hours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentreau Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine "Although rarely prescribed,[4] dextromethamphetamine is FDA approved for the treatment of ADHD andobesity under the trade name Desoxyn, while levomethamphetamine is a non-prescription over-the-counter nasal decongestant." I hope nobody ever judges you in the same manner you are judging that pilot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine"Although rarely prescribed,[4] dextromethamphetamine is FDA approved for the treatment of ADHD andobesity under the trade name Desoxyn, while levomethamphetamine is a non-prescription over-the-counter nasal decongestant." I hope nobody ever judges you in the same manner you are judging that pilot. But wasn't he actually out of it for more than ten minutes? I doubt "non-prescription over-the-counter nasal decongestant" does that. And, btw, are that nasal spray actually available in Australia, and are dextro-meth used in Australia, or are we only talking the US? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Come to think of it, wouldn't a drug test be able to show that it was, say, dextro-meth, levo-meth or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Sorry Gentreau, not to seem rude but this person put several people in grave danger not to mention an expensive aircraft and the credibility of the RFDS. Sacking him was kind, he should have also been heavily fined by CASA in my opinion. Being a commercial pilot is a serious and responsible occupation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Gentreau, all your posts are on the money, reasoned and well considered. You can't hang this guy without going into it further. You have to operate these kind of callout and roster situations and often being a medical emergency, the pilot may be tempted in to flying with a head cold and may have used a nasal spray, and been dog tired It could be that simple. I'm not talking from someone elses experiences here. I have legally been 23 hours on duty and on another occasion, have gone through the experience of not being able to clear my ears on descent and split one eardrum as a consequence. during the approach. Try THAT for a pain level. I flew when I shouldn't have. URTI is upper level tract infection. You should never fly with it. Many RFDS pilots over the years have done more duty than they in retrospect would have chosen to do . That to some extent is the nature of their operation. Notification times for call out would be unpredictable. You can't just sit there and be ready for any kind of duty all the time. It is not a case of in an emergency smash glass. Instant pilot, just add water. GG regarding your assuming this guy is a junkie..... Mate I hope if ever you are accused of something by the powers, your treatment will be less judgemental than what you are recommending here. for this guy.. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 All we have to go on is the press report , however I would like to believe that the pilot was afforded a presumption of innocence while the authorities investigated the matter. The fact that the pilot was sacked some two weeks after the incident , would indicate that sufficient time was given to consider all aspects of the event including rosters , health issues , duty cycles and whatever else may be considered relevant. IF the press report is correct it would appear that the RFDS has acted in the best interests of all concerned . Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Gentreau, all your posts are on the money, reasoned and well considered. You can't hang this guy without going into it further. Yes superior wisdom gleaned from a brief news article will always trump the actual employers knowledge of the situation and those on the flight. Well done facthunter... don't stop hunting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Keep your sarcasm to yourself. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Yes superior wisdom gleaned from a brief news article will always trump the actual employers knowledge of the situation and those on the flight. Well done facthunter... don't stop hunting! How is that any different to slaying the pilot on the same information. Hello pot, this is the kettle calling.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Well just to repeat the employer RFDS has ah somewhat more information available to them than the news article, so he was sacked. To counter this dismissal requires something more than just speculation get it? Seems strange to me that some would imply they would be OK to take a commercial flight with a hallucinogenic drug user at the controls. I would say each to their own but this involves the lives of innocent people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 No-one implied anything like what you say. Stick to what was said. I am prepared to justify my suggesting not being so judgemental. I wonder if the pilot in question had any support at the interview(s) . Employers have been known to take the easy option of dismissing the pilot and satisfying the regulator as a way of getting over the situation in the quickest way.It's easy to get another pilot, and CASA don't take the matter further. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 The employer could have sacked him for falling asleep.. All the article said was that he was fired for safety reasons.. We should all know better than to trust the medias take in anything... Your posts are an excellent example Of how people can imply crap that isn't there;) Cheers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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