RPM setting for landing J170: What do you use?

[Gentreau]

Thanks again Nev, actually your statements about low speed control authority bothered me too.

 

I am surprised that a training aircraft has poor control authority at 11knts above stall speed.

 

It must make stalling (and not spinning) practice interesting for instructors.

 

In fact it sounds to me like the bulldozer driver would be OK, flying it with 25kts of speed margin, but anyone wanting to finesse the aircraft close to the edge of the envelope would get bitten by it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you can fly a powered building brick, you're right to go on ANY aircraft Nev.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

So cant speak for all Jabs but with respect to Rudder Authority in my 230.....I can override aileron effect with rudder no problem in fact sideslip control the aileron is the limiting factor as to how unbalanced you want to be ......

 

Davids point about flying big strips and then being challenged at short strips is very real for me, I learned in SA at Gawler, an old WWII field that before the new freeway ate a fair chunk of the field had a main strip that was approx 1800m long........ it didnt matter how fast you were, or how slippery the plane generally 1800m meant you made it without worrying about fences at the end...... South Grafton my new aircraft home is <900m long and the first few landings with 2 up and a full load were eyebrow raising...... managing energy levels there was far more important if you didnt want an up close and personal view of the local pondlife at the end of the strip.....

 

Andy

 

 

[David Isaac]

... David, those statements certainly don't give me much confidence in that aircraft, especially if they are sold for training.

As I said Gentreau, I am only reporting on what I have been told about the Jabiru, I am not speaking from experience, whereas Nev is speaking from an instructing experience and many years in commercial aviation. Nev does seem to concur.

I learned to fly in very forgiving types. I did my first solo at 16 years of age in a Morane-Saulnier M.S.880B Rallye, then to Victa 100, then C150, then C172, then Citabria, then the C182RG, C180, C185 then C206 and finally Auster J1b. So I am used to aircraft with good control authority as long as you are prepared to use your feet. The Auster stalls at 24 knots and you approach at 40 knots and full flap in a short field config, I might add with a fair bit of power on as well ... It helps if you can tap dance.

 

I have no idea how I would handle a Jabiru ... maybe I should go and visit Motz at Jaspers Brush and scare the hell out of him ... LOL. Alternatively I know this character of an instructor in Kempsy with a J230 ... maybe he will let me scare him ROFL.

 

 

[facthunter]

You just have to co-ordinate it better. If you have limited control, overcontrolling wastes it. You are fighting your overcontrolling. Like the only time you are right is when you are going through it. Crossing aileron with rudder can wipe out the rudder effect. Later planes are better. More fin and rudder area.

 

It's fine in stalling. It's quite predictable and has positive stability. A recovery with power requires rudder in the 6's but it's without a problem. When the plane first came out it was evaluated by ( CASA ) I think. I more or less vowed not to fly it when I got to know it's characteristics. This was the old KFM engined version which did not have a lot of power either. The 2200 engine powers it quite well and while they are a little slippery a lot of people like the way they fly. The throttle between the legs bit doesn't grab me though. The later ones are good training aircraft. Again MY opinion here. They are NOT short or rough strip aircraft though.. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Sh!t, im in trouble then. lol..

Seriously, you would be hard pushed to find a better trainer than some of the Jab models. not all. I wojnt speak of the engines, just the aircraft as a whole.

 

There are 2 schools of thought. 1. Training should be done in the easiest, simplest, forgiving aircraft available.2, training in a more tricky slippery, complex type right from the beggining results in a better pilot.

 

I have 3 jabiru's online (for now) so its no secret which side of the fence im on. The 160 and 230 are my pics for training. The 170 is not my favorite due to its wishy washy controllability at low speeds.

 

In gusty xwinds particularly, it just is a bit beyond a joke and provides for chellenging 'moments' while trying to teach in it.

 

Providing for early success in training, while important, is not the be all and end all of the argument. The jabiru 'pilot' has to have his stick and rudder sorted, his speed control on final sorted, must have soft hands and not over controlling, must have situational awareness due to the speed, must have an excellent forced landing technique (for obvious reasons), the list goes on.

 

The 160 has a high wing loading so energy must be managed to a higher degree then any of the other types. It is still my pick for jabiru training..;)

[Gentreau]

.......They are NOT short or rough strip aircraft though.. Nev

I see that. Looking at the POH for the 160, it gives minimum landing distance at sea level in ISA at 464m which means that most people will be over 500. Dunno if you guys call 500m a short strip, but over here 300 or 400m is pretty normal, 250m is a short strip.

 

......Seriously, you would be hard pushed to find a better trainer than some of the Jab models......

Bearing in mind the legal restrictions on trainers, what other aircraft are available for training in Oz ?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Pretty much anything 24 registered, 2 place etc. Do you mean Australian built?

 

 

[Gentreau]

Pretty much anything 24 registered, 2 place etc. Do you mean Australian built?

Not necessarily, but I'm not aware of which aircraft are 24 registered in Oz, so I was wondering what common types are also available to you.

 

For example, Fly Synthesis, ICP, Zenith, Flight Design, Remos, Ikarus, Evektor, CZAW ????????

 

.

 

 

[winsor68]

I did my initial training in a Jabiru170, soloed in a Fly Synthesis Texan550 (dream machine) and completed my training in an ICP SavanahS.

 

We have many of the same aircraft in Oz that you do in Europe.

 

 

[Gentreau]

Thanks Windsor, I see from the aircraft for sale ads that you have many of the same types, I was just trying to understand which ones are allowed for training.

 

The difference in France is that any legal two-seat microlight can be used for training at the instructors discretion.

 

.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

training aircraft have to be factory built generally (where factory built infers a level of certification not just that it was built in a factory....) and maintained by a qualified maintainer either a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (CASA Certification) or a Level 2 or greater engineer where the certiciation is provided by RAAus.

 

Home built can be used for training I seem to recall but only for the builder...personally though I'd be much happier being a pilot then a builder than a builder then a pilot......

 

Andy

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Pretty much what Andy said, although, a LAME can't work on them without an L2 ticket. Silly I know, but rules is rules..;)