birdmanpete Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Hi, I am new to the forum. I am 73 years old and about a year away from the completion of a Jodel D18 which has taken shape over many years in a series of sheds hangars. Currently my kitchen. (OK, I know; I am probably certifiable.) I am hoping to make email contact with someone who is very familiar with structural details of the type. My first uncertainty is about the intended neutral position of the trim tab. I agree that the word neutral is a bit vague. Let me suggest either "take off preset trim" or (if it is different) "comfortable cruise trim". I have many other queries which the plans have not resolved for me but I don't want to scare anyone off. Best wishes. birdmanpete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Welcome to the forum. I can't help you with your specific queries as I don't know the Jodel but there are some knowledgeable people on here who will be able to help you I am sure. There is a SAAA chapter in Albany, perhaps someone from the local chapter could help you or come for a visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Pete: Old Koreelah is your go-to guy here! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Welcome Pete, it's good to see yet another aviator with taste and discernment! I'm not too familiar with the D-18 all-flying tailplane, but I set up a useful scale in my cockpit which tells me the angle of the elevator. There are several Jodel builders on this forum. Some of us are also in the International Jodel Club, a great source of advice for builders. I'll PM you a short list and a link or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microman Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Hi Birdmanpete - welcome to the forum. I had a D18 although I did not build the basic airframe - like many others I took over a partly completed project thinking it was 90% finished (more like 10%). The trim tab should be neutral when the fully-flying elevator is at rest, ie, stick forward - because the elevator is so large it tends to sit in a forward position. You will see what I mean once the cable to the elevator is in place. As the stick is pulled back and the elevator rises at the rear the trim tab is activated by the very clever arrangement in the plans (cant remember what it was called) . What engine are you planning to put in the D18? I have seen VW's, (underpowered), Subarus, (generally unreliable), Jabirus (ok, but they have had some issues) and Rotaxs. By far the best is the Rotax - either 912 or 912ULS. Best of luck with the build. If there is anything else I can help with, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmanpete Posted July 26, 2016 Author Share Posted July 26, 2016 Microman sorted me out on Trim tabs. Many thanks. What about the upholstery. Does anyone have a cockpit pic where the seat and back rest are clearly visible. Also anyone with a picture of a motor mount for rotax would be doing me a big favour. I have a 200 hour 582 ready to go but would prefer a four stroke if I can afford it. All tips and leads will be gratefully received. Best wishes. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Simon Pyke at Temora is quite an expert. I don't know his contact details . Another guy with a lot of experience in wooden aircraft is Tim deHaan. Last seen living in the upper Murray valley. Not much to go on but good luck. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I would have thought that a Rotax 2 stroke was not eminentely suitable for a D18? ..............Keep looking for a Rotax 80hp. They come up for sale fairly frequently. I would also reject all ex VW types.....A Jabiru would be cheap but that's a place I might not want to go either. I have some instruments if you need anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microman Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Geoffreywh has it right - dont waste time with a 2-stroke - a secondhand 912 is the way to go. Use the 582 as the deposit - there is still quite good demand for them. You may have to fabricate a mount yourself - its not that difficult (or get someone to do it for you). As far as the seat back goes, the plans are fairly clear on them, but the secret is to move the seat back 100mm backwards - I am 1.8m and that gave me just enough legroom. The seat is just a flat board laid across the cockpit (glued in place) and the seat back is the same. Another thing to consider is the fuel tank setup. I discarded the tank behind the seat, and the tank in front of the panel, (too much complexity and changes of pitch) and had wing tanks made (some reinforcing needed to the area where the tanks will sit and a rib needs to be moved outboard) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel B Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Hi, I am new to the forum. I am 73 years old and about a year away from the completion of a Jodel D18 which has taken shape over many years in a series of sheds hangars. Currently my kitchen. (OK, I know; I am probably certifiable.)I am hoping to make email contact with someone who is very familiar with structural details of the type. My first uncertainty is about the intended neutral position of the trim tab. I agree that the word neutral is a bit vague. Let me suggest either "take off preset trim" or (if it is different) "comfortable cruise trim". I have many other queries which the plans have not resolved for me but I don't want to scare anyone off. Best wishes. birdmanpete Hi, I am new to the forum. I am 73 years old and about a year away from the completion of a Jodel D18 which has taken shape over many years in a series of sheds hangars. Currently my kitchen. (OK, I know; I am probably certifiable.)I am hoping to make email contact with someone who is very familiar with structural details of the type. My first uncertainty is about the intended neutral position of the trim tab. I agree that the word neutral is a bit vague. Let me suggest either "take off preset trim" or (if it is different) "comfortable cruise trim". I have many other queries which the plans have not resolved for me but I don't want to scare anyone off. Best wishes. birdmanpete Welcome birdmanpete, I have a D18, it has a Jabiru 2200 and has been flying 11 years now, many trips all round NZ, 1000 hrs. Great little airplane! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmanpete Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Thanks for that Noel B. My heart is swinging the Jabiru way. I have two Rotax 582s (one in a trike and one in a gyro) but the concensus view is that these are far from ideal. The Rotax 912 is the one people swear by but the new price is out of the question and for all its qualities it cannot claim simplicity. And I am hearing that BMW's face computer management issues. Which sees me reconsidering the Jabiru. Where should I start looking and what should I be looking out for. Best wishes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Thanks for that Noel B.My heart is swinging the Jabiru way. I have two Rotax 582s (one in a trike and one in a gyro) but the concensus view is that these are far from ideal. The Rotax 912 is the one people swear by but the new price is out of the question and for all its qualities it cannot claim simplicity. And I am hearing that BMW's face computer management issues. Which sees me reconsidering the Jabiru. Where should I start looking and what should I be looking out for. Best wishes Peter You won't find a lighter engine than the Jab, Pete. Its a good match for the D-18. I researched all sorts of car and bike engines; with gearbox fitted they all came in considerably heavier. You should be able to find someone selling a cheap used Jab engine. Then you are up for the cost of refurbishing it, which brings the price back near a new or reconditioned Jab or CAMit 2.2- which is about half the price of a Rotax. If you have the skills, the factory has been running DIY maintenance courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmanpete Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Sorry to be a pest Old Koreelah, but is there an important distinction between Jab and CAMit 2.2. I have done the Rotax DIY maintenance course (and have the certificate) so I have a small grasp of motors. Birdmanpete 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 A Camit engine might be the way to go if a Rotax is out of the question, Will certainly be cheaper, Jabiru (if you dare) are flogging rebuilt engines quite cheaply...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmanpete Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 An unexpected engine opportunity has appeared. It is a VW and is part of the estate of a pilot I knew well. He was meticulous and flew very carefully. It is complete, currently attached to an airframe which I do not want but all the accessories (except the prop) are useful for the Jodel. I have been invited to make an offer and have no idea how much demand there is for items such as this. What is a "reasonable" offer. Best wishes. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microman Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 There are VW engines and VW engines - it would need to be producing at least 60-65 hp (and most dont - even the 2180 cc model rated at 80 hp is dubious) - be very careful, even if it is cheap it may not be a saving in the long run. I had a D18 in partnership with a friend - it had an 1835 cc VW engine which produced about 55 hp at best. We could either cruise at 85 kts and have a woeful climb rate, or with a climb prop cruise at 70 kts and have a better rate of climb - you cant have it both ways when horsepower is limited. And this was a very light D18 - 275 kg empty. We spent a fortune on it, trying to get more power and make it run better (carburettor settings are critical). My later D18 with Rotax 912S cruised at 100kts at 5000 rpm, and climbed at 900 fpm at MAUW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 I would stay away from VW's Don't just make do with the engine, you'll kick yourself later if you do..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 For Sale - Current configuration zero timed reconditioned engines. Contact Jabiru Aircraft. 2200's for $12,500.00 inc gst 3300's for $16,500.00 inc gst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 I would stay away from VW's Don't just make do with the engine, you'll kick yourself later if you do..... I wasted a couple of years developing a VW for my Jodel. It ended up being hopelessly overweight, so I bought a reconditioned Jab, which I'm quite happy with. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmanpete Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share Posted August 5, 2016 Welcome birdmanpete, I have a D18, it has a Jabiru 2200 and has been flying 11 years now, many trips all round NZ, 1000 hrs. Great little airplane! 1000 hours over eleven years is about as much as I could ever hope to achieve in my Jodel. What do you make of the thinking that there is a metallurgical issue with Jabiru and that cracking of components could create a motor failure in flight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Pete there has been lots of discussion about Jabiru engine reliability on this forum. Many run for years with few problems. Some log well over 1,000 hours in school use. Others have problems long before that. Avoiding overheating and regular oil changes seem to be essential for reliability. There is an awful lot of experience with that engine on this site. It would be well worth your while reading thru those threads to find out how to maximise reliability. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 ...and my own experience of running a J2.2 in a Jodel? It's a good match for the D-18, but too much power for my D-9: at the recommended 2900 rpm its nudging VNE. As a result, on bumpy trips I often cruised at 2700 rpm or less. Result: bores glazed, increasing oil use. Jabiru recommend that you "Run it hard, don't baby it". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmanpete Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share Posted August 5, 2016 Many thanks I will follow up on the advised research. Best wishes Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Pete: the 'metallurgical issue' was a complete load of nonsense put around by someone who had no idea of what he was talking about, seized upon by several others with equal expertise as just another reason to throw mud at Jabiru. Logical thought would deduce that if there were a fundamental metallurgical fault, ALL Jab. engines would in time have the same problems - and they don't; as OK says above, there are plenty even in FTF use that happily putter along to over 1,000 hours. Jabiru engines certainly require careful attention to installation - cooling and fuel flow being two areas that you must ensure you get right. They also require intelligent (and mechanically sympathetic) engine management practices, and full attention to maintenance. I would never recommend a Jab. engine to someone who is a 'turn the key and push the throttle and she'll be right' type person - and there are plenty of those around. I don't think that even the most 'rabid' Jab fan would argue that a Rotax 4-stroke is not more tolerant of careless use, nor of the sort of hard life that an FTF has to endure in training use. Can I recommend a study of the Jabiru Installation Manual? Grab a copy from the Jabiru web-site; it will give you a very good idea of what you need to do. Then, a really good discussion with OK will add greatly to your appreciation of how to apply that information to a Jodel build. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmanpete Posted August 7, 2016 Author Share Posted August 7, 2016 I am interested in gearboxes, props, wheels and prop ground clearance (when tailplane level) I am about to start the undercarriage and it all gets a bit critical. Best wishes Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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