kaz3g Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 The sting is in the tail... "if equipment is carried that provides a pilot with the same information that would be obtained by compliance with the requirements of Appendix I for operations by day, or Appendix IV if approved for operations by night" Kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
440032 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 EFIS provides that same information, (altitude, airspeed, direction, time) - that's what it's written for, one can assume, as eluded to in 3A.4. Regs can't keep pace with technology. I've seen some old biplane with the airspeed indicator being a moving stick thing against a scale out on the wing strut. Nev probably learned on one of those, he'll know what it was on - early Tiger? It was an ASI, but not as we know it today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 It was standard on a Gipsy Moth, which I have flown only one of, VH ULM. Nothing to do with the Charles Ulm of Kingsford Smith fame. You relied on the reducing sound of the wind in the wires and the sloppiness of the controls as much as that indicator during the landing, as well as how far you had the stick back. . Altitude is still likely to be done by static air pressure and by reference to a standard atmosphere for a while yet. It's handy for performance charts for cruise at various weights and separates you from the other traffic vertically who use the same reference. Above say FL 290 (from memory) you need more physical separation if flying without a serviceable autopilot, due to the air being a lot thinner and the altimeter less responsive than at lower levels so the separation is doubled. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Borgelt Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Some years ago I wrote an article on GPS vs Pressure altitude mainly aimed at gliding. If RAAus is trying to get you to calibrate pressure altimeters against GPS altitude they are technically clueless. Here it is: GPS Altitude vs Pressure Altitude There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding in the soaring community about the difference between GPS Altitude and Pressure Altitude so I've written this article to make it clear what both are and what differences you can expect to see. It is by no means a complete discussion, just a simple explanation of the difference. Let's begin with GPS. For a 3D fix (latitude, longitude, altitude) at least 4 working satellites need to be in view of the GPS receiver antenna. For any reasonable accuracy to be achieved at least one satellite should be somewhere near the vertical, overhead. Fortunately 30 or so GPS satellites make up the constellation and this condition is usually easily fulfilled, especially in a glider cockpit where the view of the sky is essentially unobstructed. Modern GPS receivers use all the satellites in view and compute the best solution from this. Since SA (Selective Availability) was abandoned in the year 2000 horizontal position accuracy is usually well under 10 meters and vertical accuracy of the order of 10 to 20 meters is achievable. Any discrepancies here are due mainly to the passage of the GPS signals through the Ionosphere because the speed that radio waves travel through the Ionosphere can vary with Ionospheric density and GPS works out the range to each satellite by measuring time and assuming a fixed speed for the radio waves. Civilian receivers will eventually use two radio frequencies and then even these errors can then be corrected for in the mathematical processing in the receiver. So the GPS altitude is the GEOMETRIC altitude above Mean Sea Level accurate to 10 to 20 meters. Pressure Altitude (PA), while being measured and spoken of in length units (feet or meters), is really no such thing. A pressure altimeter measures PRESSURE. This is converted to altitude by applying various assumptions and corrections. Lets take the case where we want to know the altitude above Mean Sea Level using a pressure altimeter. The first thing we know is that the surface pressure varies due to weather systems as we've all seen the surface pressure charts with lines of constant pressure called isobars. The average surface pressure over the entire Earth over the year is taken as 1013.25 HectoPascals(HPa). If our altimeter at the seaside is adjusted so that the reference pressure is 1013.25 HPa the altimeter will read ZERO feet AMSL. As the pressure varies this reference pressure needs to be adjusted so the altimeter still reads ZERO feet AMSL and then the current value for the sea level pressure can be read in the subscale window. Now suppose the sea level pressure happens to be 1013.25 Hpa and the altimeter reads ZERO feet. If we now move our altimeter up to where the pressure is 697 HPa. The instrument will now show that we are at 10,000 feet. However we must add that this is 10,000 feet Pressure Altitude. Only under certain circumstances will this also be the GEOMETRIC altitude above Mean Sea Level. Why is this so (as the late Prof Julius Sumner-Miller used to say)? Consider the column of air between 1013.25 HPA and 697 Hpa. If we heat it, it will expand, cool it, it will shrink. So how far above the 1013.25HPa the 697HPa level is depends on the average temperature of that column of air. Over the years atmospheric observations showed us that the average pressure at sea level was 1013.25 Hpa. Likewise the average temperature of the surface is close to 15 deg C and the average lapse rate is 2 deg C per thousand feet in the lower atmosphere(troposphere) and this “average atmosphere” is called the International Standard Atmosphere (ISA) and aircraft performance calculations and measurements are referenced to this also. Only when the average temperature of the layer between 1013.25 Hpa and 697 Hpa is equal to that in the ISA (in this case 5 deg C) will our Pressure Altitude and GEOMETRIC altitude be equal. How important is this? Well let's take a hot day at Waikerie. Waikerie is close to sea level(~100 feet or so) and let's assume the surface temperature is 42 deg C and we're soaring in thermals so the lapse rate will be very close to Dry Adiabatic (3 deg C per thousand feet). At 10,000 feet Pressure Altitude the temperature will be 12 deg C making the average temperature in the layer to 10,000 feet PA 27 deg C. How do we figure out our GEOMETRIC altitude? Remember those Ideal Gas Laws from high school physics? The volume of a gas at constant pressure is proportional to its Absolute Temperature. In this case we have a constant pressure difference (1013.25 - 697HPa) and a column of constant cross section – say one square meter, so the height of the column will vary according to Absolute temperature. Deg C is converted to Deg Kelvin(Absolute Temperature) by adding 273.15 to the Deg C number so the temperature in the ISA layer is 273.15 + 5 =278.15 deg K and the temperature in the layer on our hot day at Waikerie is 273.15 + 27 = 300.15. The height of the layer will have expanded by the ratio 300.15/278.15 which is 1.079 or close to 8% which is 800 feet! So our GPS receiver which measures GEOMETRIC altitude will read 10,800 feet plus or minus the 35 to 70 feet possible error. At 1000 feet the difference is even worse, about 13% or 130 feet in 1000 feet. You've just discovered why final glides on hot days have a built in margin because your glider cares about GEOMETRIC altitude when it comes to the distance you can glide at a certain glide angle and also why your GPS will report a greater altitude than your pressure altimeter on warm days. Of course we mostly fly gliders in summer when even in Europe the temperature is usually above that in the ISA so it isn't surprising that Flight recorders which record both GPS altitude and Pressure Altitude will on average show that the GPS altitude is greater than Pressure Altitude. Careful consideration of other errors in Pressure Altitude such as static port errors (can easily be greater than 50 feet especially cockpit static as used in Flight Recorders) and instrument errors due to temperature changes in the instrument (easily 30 to 50 feet) convinces me that GPS altitude at 10 to 20 meters (35 to 70 feet) error is superior to Pressure Altitude for soaring performance purposes and this should be used for calculating final glides. Just be careful to add your safety margin as you no longer have the one you didn't know was there. Other branches of sport aviation such as ballooning convert measured pressure altitudes to GEOMETRIC altitude for Record purposes. Soaring doesn't, as far as I know, for badges or records. Mike Borgelt 30 August 2011 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Borgelt Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Using GPS speed in two directions will give you True Air Speed (TAS) . ASIs give Indicated Air Speed (IAS) . Simple web search will give RAAus the differences and then they can amend the tech manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I don't think anyone suggested that RAAus thought you could calibrate altimeter using GPS. Nor can use it for the ASI other than as a very rough check in the way you describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 Try this to calibrate your altimeter, if you know your altitude and local pressure Adjusting the Kollsman Altimeter 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planesmaker Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 There are different systems depending on the altimeter, as to the adjusting mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 There are different systems depending on the altimeter, as to the adjusting mechanism. Correct, but most RAA planes and low end GA use Kollsman type altimeters. Not sure about GA but I am sure/ certain that a lot of RAA planes could do with a recalibration of even the simplest type as suggested by the Kollsman link. It isn't rocket science!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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